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Old 09-13-2019, 08:25 AM   #21
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Well said, Maytag.

No one is prevented from acessing healthcare... no one says absent health insurance, (which is what this REALLY is about: insurance) you can't make an appointment with whichever doctor you want to choose. I have no insurance and in the 2-3 times I've been to a doctor in the last 2 decades I made my own appointment... told them I'm a cash patient... shopped around... checked Yelp... went for the visit... and that was that. Never gave them a SSN, only my pertinent directory information.

Now... if I were to be diagnosed with a life threatening disorder... I'd be **************** outta luck and would have to apply for a ridiculously priced bare-bones policy with an extraordinary co/pay and annual deductible.

I did the math. I spent in 20 years ~$500 on healthcare. An Obamacare-type policy would see me on the hook for the first year, including permiums... copays... and deductible... better than $25K. Then the "real" benefits would kick in. For that kind of money I better have a life threatening illness. That's 4 Boxsters.

The real problem with healthcare today is that you can't get a hospital to nail down a price for a procedure (colonoscopy, elective surgery, even an ER visit) so you can shop around. There's virtually zero opportunity to comparison shop.

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Old 09-13-2019, 09:59 AM   #22
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:38 PM   #23
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There's a lot here so let me see if I can unpack it.

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As is usually the case when reasonable people discuss in a reasonable format, we find we are not as far off as the media (or the fringe, to whom politics is most important) would have us think. It seems evident that you and I want the same thing, Piper. Where we may find disagreement is in the best way to achieve it. But if we start from an agreement that we both want quality healthcare accessible to ALL, then we can continue to discuss reasonably. It's when the hyperbole starts that the hate takes over. When the republicans call all democrats socialists who want to shred the constitution, or the democrats call all republicans mean rich white guys who don't care about minorities or children, well then we've descended to right where the media would have us; 'cuz that's what fuels their ratings.
Agreed. We have a lot more in common than sets us apart. All we have to do is open up and have a reasonable discussion. That goes for political background, race, religion, culture, etc. I agree that to a certain extent it is the media, but nobody is responsible for it more than the orange turd-ball in office. And I voted for him! But I digress.

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I'm glad you weren't denied service. I'm not sure that I think it's a bad thing that you were required to pay for those services. Sometimes it's the consequences of our actions which motivate us to think twice, or to be more cautious. That can include the monetary impact to our lifestyle. haha. But clearly there's a difference between that and a genetic disposition to certain ailments or diseases.
When you say "the consequences of our actions" I hope you don't mean my not being insured. I was between jobs and the COBRA option wasn't an affordable option. I wanted to do the right thing and get covered, but at the time I just could not afford it.

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I tend to lean towards positions of individual-responsibility, rather than community responsibility.
I don't think it's fair for me to ask you to pay for my healthcare, when I'm the one who crashed motorcycles for 30 years. I'm also the guy who enjoys a bowl of ice cream at 9pm, and sometimes eat cold cereal for dinner. I'm 40lbs overweight, and drink diet dr. pepper like it's gonna disappear next week. Should you be responsible for my healthcare when I contract type 2 diabetes in 3 years?

I'm roughly the same when it comes to being overweight, but it's not from sodas. My only weakess is carbs. I love pasta and bread! haha! I'm in full agreement regarding personal responsibility, this is why I had no problem with the personal mandate of the ACA. Because, let's face it: If an uninsured person goes to the ER it's us with insurance who end up paying for it in the form of higher hospital rates and in return, higher insurance premiums. Just like retail stores mark up products to cover losses from theft. We pay for it.

I guess I have a moral issue with for-profit healthcare. I don't know how someone is perfectly willing to accept a profit-motivated insurance exec to make their healthcare decisions. My father was denied tests because the insurance company denied approval. He was released early from the hospital after a procedure, at the objection of his PCP, because the insurance company wouldn't cover a longer stay.

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On the other hand: I have some neighbors who have a disease which is degenerative in nature. I can never remember what it's called, but it looks like extreme parkinson's. At 52 yrs old, my neighbor looks 90. He uses his walker in the fields when he's feeding the cows. I watched him one day trying to step across the gutter with his garbage can. It's heartbreaking. I try to be generous towards him, with both my time and my money (when that's helpful). I take care of his home and his lawn. I help him with his cars. I plant flowers at his mom's house for him. Don't pat me on the back, I'm making the point that the government needn't compel me to help those who can't help themselves. I can do that on my own. And I can do it in a way that ensures my resources are being used efficiently, and wisely to help those who CAN'T, not those who WON'T (and yes, there are plenty of those).
I commend you for helping your neighbors. I do what I can to help out as well. But here's the thing. There are probably thousands of people in similar situations as your neighbor. The difference is you know you neighbor and you don't know the others. But it doesn't mean they need any less help. That's where community help comes in. And I also agree that there are those that WON'T help themselves and even abuse the system. But that is minuscule compared to the abuses by some corporations getting millions in our tax money. Think Enron, Halliburton, Qualcomm, etc.etc.

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I've never been into a hospital in a "socialized healthcare" environment that didn't smell of urine, and the air tasted like staff infection. it's a disaster. Sure, it's nice I don't have to even so much as show ID (don't get me started on how many people we'd have coming across our borders to use the free healthcare system), but it'd be nicer if the doctor cared if I received quality treatment or not. "take these for a week, and let's see what happens" is the first line of treatment for anything that ails you.
I've visited my uncle in a hospital in Tornoto and I didn't notice any difference between that and some of the best hospitals here in Pittsburgh. But hey, my experience and yours may be apples and oranges.

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EDIT: OH, and I agree, let's not simply repeal obamacare and leave a void in its place. But let's also not just expand Obamacare as if it's perfect, lacking only universal acceptance. Both of those scenarios are simply politicals looking for a "win". Let's work on something better, that actually fixes some of the problems with the insurance industry. Let's find a way for everyone to access healthcare, and have choices that (through market pressure) force providers to be competitive in both quality and price. If we can put a man on the moon, surely we can solve this simple problem.
Agreed with the edit!

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Old 09-13-2019, 01:46 PM   #24
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First of all, it’s President Trump.
Secondly, he’s not “my boy”.

Not all of us are cut and dry, red or blue.
YOU and partisan people like you are a joke.
YOU and partisan politics are what is dividing this country.
YOU and your partisan tribal “us and them” mentality are the problem.

Think for yourself on each topic.
We are all Americans. Remember when that meant something?

Thanks a lot for being part of the wedge splitting this country. I hope you’re proud of yourself.
Resident Rump! He's a con, a crook. a narcissist, he kisses up to Putin and other dictators and trashes our allies. And I voted for him! Big regret.

And speaking of wedge, have you been paying attention to what Rump is doing?

It's not about partisanship this time. I was OK with Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 44, although I disagreed with them on a lot of issues.

This guy is bad for America. Period. This is the guy who, after 9/11, went on the radio and said that he now has the tallest building in Manhattan. He only gives a $h!t about himself and his wallet. The sooner people wake up the better.

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Old 09-13-2019, 01:52 PM   #25
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Well said, Maytag.


Now... if I were to be diagnosed with a life threatening disorder... I'd be **************** outta luck and would have to apply for a ridiculously priced bare-bones policy with an extraordinary co/pay and annual deductible.
I hope that never happens, because if they repeal Obamacare, once you get diagnosed you'll have a pre-existing condition.

No, you will not be turned down at the ER and they will probably do the necessary procedures, but then you can throw the "personal responsibility" mantra out the window.

Cheers to your good health for many, many years. and I meant that with all sincerity.
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:29 PM   #26
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:53 PM   #27
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“piper”: Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Talk, don’t insult. Compromise, don’t demand.
Stop watching hateful liberal news (it’s obvious that you do based on your distorted “truths”).
Your hate and anger filled rhetoric does nothing positive.
ahh... look in the mirror, bro.

You don't know what I watch.

This ain't no Liberal news outlet:
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-september-11-interview-tallest-building-manhattan-2017-9

I'd suggest you learn to accept FACTS, good or bad, instead of dismissing them.

Who's paying for the wall? Maybe you should go help Alabama recover from Dorain! LMAO!

Seriously, I have no animosity towards you. This guy lied to us and he's STILL lying to us. Accept it. It's fact!



EDIT: I stand corrected. He didn't go on the radio, he called into a TV station.

https://www.indy100.com/article/trump-911-anniversary-trump-tower-height-video-interview-bragging-9100271

See? I can admit when I'm wrong!

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Old 09-13-2019, 04:54 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by particlewave View Post
“piper”: Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Talk, don’t insult. Compromise, don’t demand.
Stop watching hateful liberal news (it’s obvious that you do based on your distorted “truths”).
Your hate and anger filled rhetoric does nothing positive.
I'm with PW on this. 100%. Piper, you're over the top, man. If you read what I said about reasonable people having reasonable conversations, you'd probably recognize that these posts are the opposite of that. They're full of insults and attacks. All you'll garner with that sort of hate is more hate.

Slow down the rhetoric abit, and let's talk about issues. What's your suggestion for healthcare? What's your suggestion for gun control? What's your suggestion for abortion laws? What's your suggestion for immigration? What's your suggestion for China?
I mean, there are plenty of substantive things we could discuss that don't require your hate filled vitriol.
Pick one?

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Old 09-13-2019, 05:04 PM   #29
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One of this great country’s founding principles is that, despite our differences, we come to the table and find compromise. Both major parties (and practically all of the MSM) are failing at that.



Oh, yeah...Uber sucks

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Old 09-13-2019, 05:06 PM   #30
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I'm with PW on this. 100%. Piper, you're over the top, man. If you read what I said about reasonable people having reasonable conversations, you'd probably recognize that these posts are the opposite of that. They're full of insults and attacks. All you'll garner with that sort of hate is more hate.

Slow down the rhetoric abit, and let's talk about issues. What's your suggestion for healthcare? What's your suggestion for gun control? What's your suggestion for abortion laws? What's your suggestion for immigration? What's your suggestion for China?
I mean, there are plenty of substantive things we could discuss that don't require your hate filled vitriol.
Pick one?

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Here's what he said about me, and I'm the one with hate-filled vitriol?

YOU and partisan people like you are a joke.
YOU and partisan politics are what is dividing this country.
YOU and your partisan tribal “us and them” mentality are the problem.

Are you serious, Maytag? I've shown I can have a good discussion, when it's mutual. As you and I have had.

But get in the dirt with me, and like Rump, I hit back. But unlike Rump, I don't need to hit back 10 times as hard. If it's acceptable for him to do it, it's acceptable for me.
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:09 PM   #31
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When you talk like that, piper, you are insulting and invalidating half of your countrymen.
I repeat: YOU and people like you are the problem.

One of this great country’s founding principles is that, despite our differences, we come to the table and find compromise. Both major parties (and practically all of the MSM) are failing at that, and you are eating out of their hands.

Calm down. Turn off the news for a while.
Stop it.



Oh, yeah...Uber sucks
I present the facts to you, yet you completely ignored them. Facts matter. Right now, RUMP is the problem.

Yeah, I'm no fan of Uber either.
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:33 PM   #32
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Piper, I'm looking through your posts in this thread, and they seem to be devoid of "facts". Which facts are we talking about here?

C'mon. Let's pick an issue and talk about a good solution. Maybe we can save the country, right here!

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Old 09-13-2019, 09:20 PM   #33
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Piper, I'm looking through your posts in this thread, and they seem to be devoid of "facts". Which facts are we talking about here?

C'mon. Let's pick an issue and talk about a good solution. Maybe we can save the country, right here!

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What do you mean? Fact: Hours after the twin towers came down Rump said that he now has the tallest building in Manhattan. Which actually turned out to be another lie, but that's another story. I gave references. Two links from 2 different sources.

And what started all this: When PW said that California is "not successful" because of their deficit, I reminded him of Rump's deficit. It went up. Another fact.

I'll be glad to discuss some issues with you, unfortunately now is a bad time. Maybe tomorrow. I will look forward to saving the country together!

And BTW, I never made personal insults on anyone here, except one time. And that was a direct response to a personal insult on me.


Good night.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:43 PM   #34
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Oooohhhhh...... so, YOU think that "facts" are you poking holes in trump? You think that's somehow useful? Helpful in any way whatsoever? YOU think that pointing out the extent of the president's narcissism makes you smart? C'mon man..... that's low-hanging fruit. You'll find no argument here.
But again: that's just politics. You're playing the divisive role really well. You want to inflame others, which is why you use the words you do: to incite a defensive response..... to start a fight, in other words.

Stop it.
Be better than that.
Now let's stick to facts that matter. So the president says stupid stuff, to build up his ego. Yeah..... it's embarrassing. So was "I did not have sex with that woman...." and "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor....". I'm not interested in personal politics. Let's talk about issues. Let's talk about policies.

Let go the hate, piper.
Let go the hate.

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Old 09-14-2019, 12:45 AM   #35
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:58 AM   #36
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I was simply pointing out how you are contributing to the division in this country.

Here’s a shocker for you: I didn’t vote for Trump (and you did, long after his comment you’re going on about).
But, he is our president and I 100% believe that he has our country’s best interests in mind.

Is he a clown? Absolutely. Does he go about things the right way? More often no than yes.
But, again, he is our president and I respect the office and the will of the voters that elected him.
If you don’t like him, show it with your vote. Don’t cry over spilled milk.

My paycheck is bigger than ever, unemployment is down, economy booming...the only downside I see is the division that has mostly been caused by the pissed off left nitpicking every gaffe or wild conspiracy theory they can come up with.

I really hate to do it because I do believe you’re a good guy who’s perception has been warped, possibly by friends, the MSM, family, but I have chosen to ignore those that want to see our country divided.
I slipped up by reading and posting here, but I’m done and have to add you to my short ignore list.

Best of luck!
You can respect the Office of the Presidency by defending its integrity and demanding integrity from him. Demand that he doesn't call American cities "Rat infested", Also, respect those who DIDN'T vote for him, which, BTW are 3 million more that those of us who did. Unless you believe his nonsense that 3 million "illigals" voted. Put me in the rising ranks of those who regret our vote. But I digress.

Fact: The economy, stock market and unemployment are on the EXACT same trajectory they were when he took office. He hasn't made anything better. On the contrary we're on the brink of a recession, thanks in large part to his trade war with China.

And just because I disagree with you, MY perception is warped? If you still think he has America's best interest in mind, I have some great land in Florida to sell you. He's sending troops to spend the night in his resorts, on our dime. He's profiting from the office. He kisses the ass of Putin and Kim over the objections of our own intelligence community. We had to pull one of our top spies in Russia because he can't stop blabbering intelligence. That's ANOTHER fact. Do you know how big of an intelligence loss that is? This will hurt us for YEARS, because no one knows how long it'll take to get someone else. His only interest is himself and his wallet. Period. If you still believe anything else, I really don't know what to say.

And if you add me to your ignore list, it's no skin off my back. I won't. I'll still read your posts, because I can handle differences in opinions. But facts? There should be no difference there.

Best wishes.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:11 AM   #37
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Oooohhhhh...... so, YOU think that "facts" are you poking holes in trump? You think that's somehow useful? Helpful in any way whatsoever? YOU think that pointing out the extent of the president's narcissism makes you smart? C'mon man..... that's low-hanging fruit. You'll find no argument here.
But again: that's just politics. You're playing the divisive role really well. You want to inflame others, which is why you use the words you do: to incite a defensive response..... to start a fight, in other words.

Stop it.
Be better than that.
Now let's stick to facts that matter. So the president says stupid stuff, to build up his ego. Yeah..... it's embarrassing. So was "I did not have sex with that woman...." and "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor....". I'm not interested in personal politics. Let's talk about issues. Let's talk about policies.

Let go the hate, piper.
Let go the hate.

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I'm just pointing out the fact that this clown is unfit for the office.

And do you seriously want to compare Rump's lies to those of Clinton and Obama? Write me a list of theirs and I'll write you a list of his. I hope you like curling up for a long read! LOL

The only hate I have is for Cheeto Bone-Spurs. None for you, none for PW. I didn't have hate for Reagan, nor the Bushes. Cheney, on the other hand... that's another story we don't need to get into.

I will not let go of it until he's gone. I love my country too much to let this go.

He lied to me, he lied to you. Thousands of times. He's still lying. Every day.

So... want to have a discussion about guns?
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:29 AM   #38
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Finally, piper, something that isn't simply more of your personal attacks at the president. Seriously; go back and read your last post with an open mind. You'll realize that of the entire post, this is the only meat there. Everything else is conspiracy theory crap, and attacks at the individual. You yelling "fact" in front of a statement doesn't magically make it so.

So let's take the one bone you've thrown.

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Fact: The economy, stock market and unemployment are on the EXACT same trajectory they were when he took office. He hasn't made anything better. On the contrary we're on the brink of a recession, thanks in large part to his trade war with China.
Your first sentence is NOT fact. And you saying it more aggressively won't make it so. The truth is that, while the economy was improving before president trump, it was doing so very, VERY slowly. The argument is frequently made by economists all over the country that it HAD to improve, because during Obama's presidency we saw some of the worst economic times of the last 50 years. There was nowhere to go but up.

Now we find ourselves in the longest period of economic expansion in the nation's history. The pressure is for it to drop. None of the key indicators point to recession except this one: How long can this really go on?
Now if you'd like my OPINION (which is what YOU give us after you say "FACT"). My opinion is that 4 weeks ago the MSM and democratic presidential candidates started talking about this "looming recession" for the single purpose of negating what will most certainly be trump's campaign dialogue: "it's the economy, stupid". Because if they can't beat the economy, they can't beat trump. And beating trump is MUCH more important to them than the health of our economy. (Both sides of the aisle have made winning a priority over what's best for the country for several years now. It disgusts me. )

Now piper, I've addressed your unreasonable rants and histrionics with calm, reasonable discussion. Think you can do the same?
If you can't, then this is the last of my posts in this thread. (Unless I need an uber)

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Old 09-14-2019, 07:06 AM   #39
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Finally, piper, something that isn't simply more of your personal attacks at the president. Seriously; go back and read your last post with an open mind. You'll realize that of the entire post, this is the only meat there. Everything else is conspiracy theory crap, and attacks at the individual. You yelling "fact" in front of a statement doesn't magically make it so.

So let's take the one bone you've thrown.



Your first sentence is NOT fact. And you saying it more aggressively won't make it so. The truth is that, while the economy was improving before president trump, it was doing so very, VERY slowly. The argument is frequently made by economists all over the country that it HAD to improve, because during Obama's presidency we saw some of the worst economic times of the last 50 years. There was nowhere to go but up.

Now we find ourselves in the longest period of economic expansion in the nation's history. The pressure is for it to drop. None of the key indicators point to recession except this one: How long can this really go on?
Now if you'd like my OPINION (which is what YOU give us after you say "FACT"). My opinion is that 4 weeks ago the MSM and democratic presidential candidates started talking about this "looming recession" for the single purpose of negating what will most certainly be trump's campaign dialogue: "it's the economy, stupid". Because if they can't beat the economy, they can't beat trump. And beating trump is MUCH more important to them than the health of our economy. (Both sides of the aisle have made winning a priority over what's best for the country for several years now. It disgusts me. )

Now piper, I've addressed your unreasonable rants and histrionics with calm, reasonable discussion. Think you can do the same?
If you can't, then this is the last of my posts in this thread. (Unless I need an uber)

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Sorry, Maytag. Facts are facts and here's my proof.

FACT: Unemployment has been on the decline since 2010, after recovering from the Great Recession.

From 2010 to 2016, unemployment dropped by 5 points. Since Rump took office in Jan 2016, it dropped by 1.3 That's a FACT.

Source: National Employment Monthly Update


FACT: Stock has been rising since 2010. Again, after recovering from the Great Recession. It's on the same Trajectory today:

Source: https://www.macrotrends.net/1358/dow-jones-industrial-average-last-10-years



FACT: Economy is on the same trajectory as it was when Rump took office. (I was wrong. It's NOT, it's actually going DOWN. So I stand corrected.)

Source: https://www.bea.gov/news/glance

You can argue with my opinions all you want, you can't argue with facts and sources. Want to argue with history?

So I've provided facts and backed them up with sources. What have you?

Actually, your argument that the economy had nowhere to go but up, is, in fact opinion. And I respect that, however, my counter-argument is that it's been called the Great Recession because it wasn't the 2nd Great Depression. To say it had nowhere to go but up just doesn't hold water. It could have continued to go down. Unfortunately, neither of us can prove a negative, so we'll leave it at that. but it COULD have gone down, thankfully it didn't.


EDIT: And there you go twisting history when you say "during Obama's presidency we saw the worst economic times in 50 years." In fact, Obama was HANDED that economy from Bush, then he turned it around. Facts matter.

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Old 09-14-2019, 09:36 AM   #40
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You can respect the Office of the Presidency by defending its integrity and demanding integrity from him. Demand that he doesn't call American cities "Rat infested", Also, respect those who DIDN'T vote for him, which, BTW are 3 million more that those of us who did. Unless you believe his nonsense that 3 million "illigals" voted. Put me in the rising ranks of those who regret our vote. But I digress.

Fact: The economy, stock market and unemployment are on the EXACT same trajectory they were when he took office. He hasn't made anything better. On the contrary we're on the brink of a recession, thanks in large part to his trade war with China.

And just because I disagree with you, MY perception is warped? If you still think he has America's best interest in mind, I have some great land in Florida to sell you. He's sending troops to spend the night in his resorts, on our dime. He's profiting from the office. He kisses the ass of Putin and Kim over the objections of our own intelligence community. We had to pull one of our top spies in Russia because he can't stop blabbering intelligence. That's ANOTHER fact. Do you know how big of an intelligence loss that is? This will hurt us for YEARS, because no one knows how long it'll take to get someone else. His only interest is himself and his wallet. Period. If you still believe anything else, I really don't know what to say.

And if you add me to your ignore list, it's no skin off my back. I won't. I'll still read your posts, because I can handle differences in opinions. But facts? There should be no difference there.

Best wishes.
I wanna hear about that land...

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1986 BMW 325es
2012 Ford Edge Sport

"Ignore the guilt, and take your turn"
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