[piper6909]

There's a lot here so let me see if I can unpack it.

Originally Posted by maytag

As is usually the case when reasonable people discuss in a reasonable format, we find we are not as far off as the media (or the fringe, to whom politics is most important) would have us think. It seems evident that you and I want the same thing, Piper. Where we may find disagreement is in the best way to achieve it. But if we start from an agreement that we both want quality healthcare accessible to ALL, then we can continue to discuss reasonably. It's when the hyperbole starts that the hate takes over. When the republicans call all democrats socialists who want to shred the constitution, or the democrats call all republicans mean rich white guys who don't care about minorities or children, well then we've descended to right where the media would have us; 'cuz that's what fuels their ratings.

Agreed. We have a lot more in common than sets us apart. All we have to do is open up and have a reasonable discussion. That goes for political background, race, religion, culture, etc. I agree that to a certain extent it is the media, but nobody is responsible for it more than the orange turd-ball in office. And I voted for him! But I digress.

Originally Posted by maytag

I'm glad you weren't denied service. I'm not sure that I think it's a bad thing that you were required to pay for those services. Sometimes it's the consequences of our actions which motivate us to think twice, or to be more cautious. That can include the monetary impact to our lifestyle. haha. But clearly there's a difference between that and a genetic disposition to certain ailments or diseases.

When you say "the consequences of our actions" I hope you don't mean my not being insured. I was between jobs and the COBRA option wasn't an affordable option. I wanted to do the right thing and get covered, but at the time I just could not afford it.

Originally Posted by maytag

I tend to lean towards positions of individual-responsibility, rather than community responsibility.
I don't think it's fair for me to ask you to pay for my healthcare, when I'm the one who crashed motorcycles for 30 years. I'm also the guy who enjoys a bowl of ice cream at 9pm, and sometimes eat cold cereal for dinner. I'm 40lbs overweight, and drink diet dr. pepper like it's gonna disappear next week. Should you be responsible for my healthcare when I contract type 2 diabetes in 3 years?

I'm roughly the same when it comes to being overweight, but it's not from sodas. My only weakess is carbs. I love pasta and bread! haha! I'm in full agreement regarding personal responsibility, this is why I had no problem with the personal mandate of the ACA. Because, let's face it: If an uninsured person goes to the ER it's us with insurance who end up paying for it in the form of higher hospital rates and in return, higher insurance premiums. Just like retail stores mark up products to cover losses from theft. We pay for it.

I guess I have a moral issue with for-profit healthcare. I don't know how someone is perfectly willing to accept a profit-motivated insurance exec to make their healthcare decisions. My father was denied tests because the insurance company denied approval. He was released early from the hospital after a procedure, at the objection of his PCP, because the insurance company wouldn't cover a longer stay.

Originally Posted by maytag

On the other hand: I have some neighbors who have a disease which is degenerative in nature. I can never remember what it's called, but it looks like extreme parkinson's. At 52 yrs old, my neighbor looks 90. He uses his walker in the fields when he's feeding the cows. I watched him one day trying to step across the gutter with his garbage can. It's heartbreaking. I try to be generous towards him, with both my time and my money (when that's helpful). I take care of his home and his lawn. I help him with his cars. I plant flowers at his mom's house for him. Don't pat me on the back, I'm making the point that the government needn't compel me to help those who can't help themselves. I can do that on my own. And I can do it in a way that ensures my resources are being used efficiently, and wisely to help those who CAN'T, not those who WON'T (and yes, there are plenty of those).

I commend you for helping your neighbors. I do what I can to help out as well. But here's the thing. There are probably thousands of people in similar situations as your neighbor. The difference is you know you neighbor and you don't know the others. But it doesn't mean they need any less help. That's where community help comes in. And I also agree that there are those that WON'T help themselves and even abuse the system. But that is minuscule compared to the abuses by some corporations getting millions in our tax money. Think Enron, Halliburton, Qualcomm, etc.etc.

Originally Posted by maytag

I've never been into a hospital in a "socialized healthcare" environment that didn't smell of urine, and the air tasted like staff infection. it's a disaster. Sure, it's nice I don't have to even so much as show ID (don't get me started on how many people we'd have coming across our borders to use the free healthcare system), but it'd be nicer if the doctor cared if I received quality treatment or not. "take these for a week, and let's see what happens" is the first line of treatment for anything that ails you.

I've visited my uncle in a hospital in Tornoto and I didn't notice any difference between that and some of the best hospitals here in Pittsburgh. But hey, my experience and yours may be apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by maytag

EDIT: OH, and I agree, let's not simply repeal obamacare and leave a void in its place. But let's also not just expand Obamacare as if it's perfect, lacking only universal acceptance. Both of those scenarios are simply politicals looking for a "win". Let's work on something better, that actually fixes some of the problems with the insurance industry. Let's find a way for everyone to access healthcare, and have choices that (through market pressure) force providers to be competitive in both quality and price. If we can put a man on the moon, surely we can solve this simple problem.

Agreed with the edit!