Gun discussion. So piper6069 can let the other thread be.

[Nine8Six]

I think most of you folks would have a shock coming to China. Zero weapons here, not only banned hard but absolutely no love or wish for them or anything that resemble or is engineered to terminate life for that same matter *total peace*.

The cops don't even have guns on them; responding officers, traffic police, the whole lot are gun-less. Does it make it more dangerous or risky? Absolutely not, safest country you can be in to be honest, anywhere, 24/7, public places, around the clock, anywhere really.

Do China have armed swat teams and special ops? of course they do, although deployed once or twice per year and probably just for training & show-off (e.g. during a major event, parade, terrorism prevention, etc).

ps: a rare incident happened only a few weeks ago where an 57 y/old chap was waving a long knife in public, he did not comply, tried to ran and they had no choice to shoot him in a leg with a rubber bullet. That news made country-wide 'major' shame on the police force for doing so, the 'boo hoo' was everywhere. Not sure they will ever attempt something like this ever again, it went really wrong for cops lol

Anyway... thought I'd share how this guns and personal security thing pans out in another place of the world

[Starter986]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

I think most of you folks would have a shock coming to China. Zero weapons here, not only banned hard but absolutely no love or wish for them or anything that resemble or is engineered to terminate life for that same matter *total peace*.

The cops don't even have guns on them; responding officers, traffic police, the whole lot are gun-less. Does it make it more dangerous or risky? Absolutely not, safest country you can be in to be honest, anywhere, 24/7, public places, around the clock, anywhere really.

Do China have armed swat teams and special ops? of course they do, although deployed once or twice per year and probably just for training & show-off (e.g. during a major event, parade, terrorism prevention, etc).

ps: a rare incident happened only a few weeks ago where an 57 y/old chap was waving a long knife in public, he did not comply, tried to ran and they had no choice to shoot him in a leg with a rubber bullet. That news made country-wide 'major' shame on the police force for doing so, the 'boo hoo' was everywhere. Not sure they will ever attempt something like this ever again, it went really wrong for cops lol

Anyway... thought I'd share how this guns and personal security thing pans out in another place of the world

LOL, China. That's where I'm going when the doc gives me however many months to live. If it isn't an escalator or elevator that eats me likely I'll get run over by an idiot... smashed by a cement truck taking a corner too fast... or crushed by a building facade that falls off.

Yeah... no guns... but **************** do they like to kill with swords, knives, and machetes. Pffffft.

Welcome back.

And SMK and Maytag: You fellas are right on point. It's called the RIGHT to bear arms... not the privelege.

SMK... thank you so very much for your service, Sir.

The rest of you: Happy New Year.

[SMK Shoe]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

I think most of you folks would have a shock coming to China. Zero weapons here, not only banned hard but absolutely no love or wish for them or anything that resemble or is engineered to terminate life for that same matter *total peace*.

The cops don't even have guns on them; responding officers, traffic police, the whole lot are gun-less. Does it make it more dangerous or risky? Absolutely not, safest country you can be in to be honest, anywhere, 24/7, public places, around the clock, anywhere really.

Do China have armed swat teams and special ops? of course they do, although deployed once or twice per year and probably just for training & show-off (e.g. during a major event, parade, terrorism prevention, etc).

ps: a rare incident happened only a few weeks ago where an 57 y/old chap was waving a long knife in public, he did not comply, tried to ran and they had no choice to shoot him in a leg with a rubber bullet. That news made country-wide 'major' shame on the police force for doing so, the 'boo hoo' was everywhere. Not sure they will ever attempt something like this ever again, it went really wrong for cops lol

Anyway... thought I'd share how this guns and personal security thing pans out in another place of the world

I'll agree that the REPORTED homicide numbers for china are low per million( because we know china is 100% truthful). But you are incorrect that the are no weapons in china. It is estimated that there are over 49,735,000 weapons in china. Also china has the 2nd largest possession of small arms for the govt.

So, we should be like china, give up our civil rights to be peasants for the country. Because china is such a supporter of civil rights ( as long as you think and do exactly like the govt tells you to.) You volunteerly gave up your rights in Canada, how's that working for you. and, china 's numbers for Murdered citizens is higher than the US. It is lower when you figure per million people, BUT still don't know how much safer it is when 13,410 murders happen a year.

[Nine8Six]

@SMK Shoe
Regardless of figures estimated and released by foreign agencies, I'll stick to say that I have lived, worked and traveled in China for quite a few years now (+15 years?) and never (ever) seen a civilian equipped, owning or collecting any sort of firearm (hand gun, rifle, shot gun, or assault anything). Just not a thing here, I guess. Take it fwiw...

Like Starter986 rightly said; swords, knives, and machetes are MUCH more cool

RE giving up my rights. That question confuses me more than anything to be honest. I'm not involved politically and couldn't care less about the subject, but that's just me. You know, as long as I'm giving the rights to pick my starbucks coffee in the morning, head over my work using public roads, be able to do regular groceries and/or free to attend public education & medical facilities, I'm all good man

[SMK Shoe]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

RE giving up my rights. That question confuses me more than anything to be honest. I'm not involved politically and couldn't care less about the subject, but that's just me. You know, as long as I'm giving the rights to pick my starbucks coffee in the morning, head over my work using public roads, be able to do regular groceries and/or free to attend public education & medical facilities, I'm all good man

So what happens when those in charge decide that Starbucks is not healthy and decides to make it illegal. Or when they decide what is taught in public schools or who gets and doesn't get "free" medical support.
So you are good with the people in charge deciding what "rights" you are allowed to have.
I do believe what was posted earlier. We do not have a gun problem as much as we have a cultural problem. I do believe that as a society we are digressing. decades ago you could order a gun thru Sears and Roebucks. Gun in every pickup truck in the high school parking lot. Children grew up around guns and it wasn't such a big deal. I was raised around guns and my daughter was raised around guns. I used them for work and relaxation. My sister raised her children to believe guns will jump up by themselves and make the owner shoot people.
Lets put the blame exactly where it belongs, the criminals and mentally defective people that use them to harm people. Guns are a tool, just like a hammer, or a car, or even a cell phone. Used for the intended purpose everything is good, but bad people wanting to hurt or kill others will use them for other than their intended purpose. Atleast with a gun I have the ability to defend myself and family.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by SMK Shoe

So you are good with the people in charge deciding what "rights" you are allowed to have.

What the heck you want me to do about it? Sit on the ground and do that gurl cry thingy? Blow-up an entire government building? Dude, you resist and you end up in prison, you go around the rules and you end up in prison, you try to smart the system and you get outsmart the very next day, it just never bloody ends. Same in the USA or anywhere. And trust me... I'm talking with experience here and I won't try that 'I'm clever' thing again... got the message and walking straight now I tell ya. If you tell me coffee is illegal tomorrow morning I'll just move-on with my life and go for orange juice lol

You are talking about heavily militarized policy & law makers equipped with nation-wide media groups pushing their propaganda 'daily' here. A few guns!? come on guys...

We need more lobbyists "with balls", folks that aren't afraid to speak up and fight for the mass. Guns are only good for, as you've mentioned; self-protection and sports.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by SMK Shoe

So you are good with the people in charge deciding what "rights" you are allowed to have.

Lets put the blame exactly where it belongs, the criminals and mentally defective people that use them to harm people. Guns are a tool, just like a hammer, or a car, or even a cell phone. Used for the intended purpose everything is good, but bad people wanting to hurt or kill others will use them for other than their intended purpose. Atleast with a gun I have the ability to defend myself and family.

People in charge DO decide what rights you have, they're called Judges and Lawmakers.
The constitution gives us certain "inalienable rights". But since it can often be rather vague and taken out of context, we have judges who are the final arbiters.
And by the way, our Constitution was written by people in charge.

The good news is that we can still decide who we put in charge.

Actual and complete Second Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I love how people tend to leave out the "well regulated" part.

Yes, guns are tools, just like cars. But you need training and pass an aptitude test, a license, insurance and registration before you can drive a car. And there are countless safety regulations that play a part in the design of a car. Imagine if we treated cars like guns: People of all ages would be driving around, without having to pass any sort of aptitude test, no insurance if someone hit you. And seat belts, air bags, and crash tests? pffft! Those are for wimps! And BTW, you're not allowed to keep records to analyze the data of any crash that happened. Yeah, that would be fun! So maybe you may want to rethink your analogy between guns and cars. In all seriousness though, having liability insurance for owning a gun may not be a bad idea.

And I agree with you that we need to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. That's why I find it very disturbing that Rump made it harder for agencies to flag those people:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-sign-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-illnesses/


.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Actual and complete Second Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I love how people tend to leave out the "well regulated" part.


.

And I love how others simply ignore what the rest of it meant to the founding fathers when it was written and ratified.

I suppose YOU'RE one of those who thinks that is referring to what we now call the National Guard?
Check your history to understand the context of "...being necessary to the security of a free State...". The National Guard doesn't fill the need they intended. Not even close. In fact, the National Guard would indeed represent the danger they wanted us to be able to defend ourselves FROM.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by maytag

And I love how others simply ignore what the rest of it meant to the founding fathers when it was written and ratified.

I suppose YOU'RE one of those who thinks that is referring to what we now call the National Guard?
Check your history to understand the context of "...being necessary to the security of a free State...". The National Guard doesn't fill the need they intended. Not even close. In fact, the National Guard would indeed represent the danger they wanted us to be able to defend ourselves FROM.

You'd suppose wrong. First of all, there's an estimated 20,000 to 60,000 militia groups in the USA. We don't know the exact number because why? They're NOT regulated. That was my point. They love to harp on the 'right to bear arms' part, but conveniently forget the 'well regulated' part.

I actually think it's an outdated concept, anyway. A group of butt-scratching, beer-bellied yahoos with machine guns against the best equipped and best trained forces in the history of the world? HAHA! I'll take that bet!

I'm a gun owner. But I want nothing to do whit the NRA and some whacked-out, anarchist militia groups. I suppose some militia groups are good, but most seem to me like wannabe army rejects. The NRA was good up until around the 80's or 90s, when they just went off the deep end, in my opinion.

[SMK Shoe]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Yes, guns are tools, just like cars. But you need training and pass an aptitude test, a license, insurance and registration before you can drive a car. And there are countless safety regulations that play a part in the design of a car. Imagine if we treated cars like guns: People of all ages would be driving around, without having to pass any sort of aptitude test, no insurance if someone hit you. And seat belts, air bags, and crash tests?
In all seriousness though, having liability insurance for owning a gun may not be a bad idea.


.

So there are no idiots driving cars, drinking, texting, doing drugs, not paying attention hurting/killing people.
You just can't let it go about people of all ages. NO ONE here wants a three year old with a machine gun. you have to be 18 years old to buy a long gun and 21 to purchase a handgun. Yes, you can allow someone under that age to use them but must be supervised.
I agree about liability insurance. You have insurance for your car/home/medical and other things important to you. why not for weapons. BUT, lets call it a TAX and make everyone in the US pay for it like O'Dumbo Care. Sounds fair? I have no problem at all letting you pay for my gun insurance with your tax.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by SMK Shoe

So there are no idiots driving cars, drinking, texting, doing drugs, not paying attention hurting/killing people.
You just can't let it go about people of all ages. NO ONE here wants a three year old with a machine gun. you have to be 18 years old to buy a long gun and 21 to purchase a handgun. Yes, you can allow someone under that age to use them but must be supervised.
I agree about liability insurance. You have insurance for your car/home/medical and other things important to you. why not for weapons. BUT, lets call it a TAX and make everyone in the US pay for it like O'Dumbo Care. Sounds fair? I have no problem at all letting you pay for my gun insurance with your tax.

There are people who may CHOOSE to never own a gun, but EVERYONE will eventually need health care. It's a matter of time. It's not exactly a choice. THAT'S why we should keep the individual mandate. When an uninsured person goes into the ER and can't pay, we ALL pay for him/her in the form of higher premiums. Is that fair? Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Weren't Repubes supposed to be all for that?

You don't like Obamacare? I hope you, or anyone in your family don't have a pre-existing condition. But if you do, because of Obamacare, you can still get insurance when you need it. Before Obamacare you would have been denied. Thanks, Obama!

[maytag]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

I think most of you folks would have a shock coming to China. Zero weapons here, not only banned hard but absolutely no love or wish for them or anything that resemble or is engineered to terminate life for that same matter *total peace*.



The cops don't even have guns on them; responding officers, traffic police, the whole lot are gun-less. Does it make it more dangerous or risky? Absolutely not, safest country you can be in to be honest, anywhere, 24/7, public places, around the clock, anywhere really.



Do China have armed swat teams and special ops? of course they do, although deployed once or twice per year and probably just for training & show-off (e.g. during a major event, parade, terrorism prevention, etc).



ps: a rare incident happened only a few weeks ago where an 57 y/old chap was waving a long knife in public, he did not comply, tried to ran and they had no choice to shoot him in a leg with a rubber bullet. That news made country-wide 'major' shame on the police force for doing so, the 'boo hoo' was everywhere. Not sure they will ever attempt something like this ever again, it went really wrong for cops lol



Anyway... thought I'd share how this guns and personal security thing pans out in another place of the world

Do you wonder, (i do) if China would have a better record vis-a-vis human rights violations, if their citizenry were armed? I'm sorry, but generally speaking, China is a bad example to emulate for something like this.

But I think there's still soone meat on that bone that we can gnaw on.
I think there's a culture problem in America, too. In the last 50 years or so, we've gone from a country where most of the pickup trucks in the high school parking lot carried a loaded shotgun in the rack, yet there were very few incidents, to a country where guns are prohibited nearly everywhere, and we have shootings daily. Again..... it seems to be a culture problem, not a gun problem.

But let's look further into the china comparison. Let's say it was determined that we are going to "hard ban" guns, as you described? Picture that for a moment. You're going to need a method of gathering them all up. And where will they start? Of course: the law-abiding folks. The "bad guys" will become more brazen, because they'll recognize they're the only ones still armed. But we'll spend a fortune prosecuting as criminals, those citizens who decide to lie and keep a gun for protection. We criminalize the good guys, then. But worse? We start a revolution. Because trust me when I tell you that most of the mid-west and the other red states will say "come pry this gun from my cold dead fingers".
I can think of another country that went around and collected their citizens guns..... that whole thing ended in concentration camps.
I'm sorry, for better or worse, guns are here to stay in America.

That doesn't mean we can't find meaningful ways to regulate them. But that's swatting at the leaves: we need to cut down the problem at the trunk.

As Americans, we must ask ourselves: what is different in society from 50 or 75 years ago, when shootings almost never happened? This is a conversation that'll very quickly become inflamed and personal. But nothing good is ever easy. Let's start at the very basic unit of American society: the family. What is different now than it was then? How about at school?

I think we can learn some things we probably don't really want to know.... but must. If we're just willing to ask the hard questions and answer them honestly.

But asking today's Americans to "dig deep", to be honest with themselves even if it hurts, to actually look at truth, instead of "my truth, your truth", yeaaaahhhh........ not gonna happen either.

We're on a train that's run out of tracks. It's only a matter of time before it crashes catastrophically.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by maytag

Do you wonder, (i do) if China would have a better record vis-a-vis human rights violations, if their citizenry were armed? I'm sorry, but generally speaking, China is a bad example to emulate for something like this.

But I think there's still soone meat on that bone that we can gnaw on.
I think there's a culture problem in America, too. In the last 50 years or so, we've gone from a country where most of the pickup trucks in the high school parking lot carried a loaded shotgun in the rack, yet there were very few incidents, to a country where guns are prohibited nearly everywhere, and we have shootings daily. Again..... it seems to be a culture problem, not a gun problem.

But let's look further into the china comparison. Let's say it was determined that we are going to "hard ban" guns, as you described? Picture that for a moment. You're going to need a method of gathering them all up. And where will they start? Of course: the law-abiding folks. The "bad guys" will become more brazen, because they'll recognize they're the only ones still armed. But we'll spend a fortune prosecuting as criminals, those citizens who decide to lie and keep a gun for protection. We criminalize the good guys, then. But worse? We start a revolution. Because trust me when I tell you that most of the mid-west and the other red states will say "come pry this gun from my cold dead fingers".
I can think of another country that went around and collected their citizens guns..... that whole thing ended in concentration camps.
I'm sorry, for better or worse, guns are here to stay in America.

That doesn't mean we can't find meaningful ways to regulate them. But that's swatting at the leaves: we need to cut down the problem at the trunk.

As Americans, we must ask ourselves: what is different in society from 50 or 75 years ago, when shootings almost never happened? This is a conversation that'll very quickly become inflamed and personal. But nothing good is ever easy. Let's start at the very basic unit of American society: the family. What is different now than it was then? How about at school?

I think we can learn some things we probably don't really want to know.... but must. If we're just willing to ask the hard questions and answer them honestly.

But asking today's Americans to "dig deep", to be honest with themselves even if it hurts, to actually look at truth, instead of "my truth, your truth", yeaaaahhhh........ not gonna happen either.

We're on a train that's run out of tracks. It's only a matter of time before it crashes catastrophically.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Maytag, I realize and understand the cultural aspect, and respect that. So am I respecting the other societies' views on their firearm policies in their own country.

I'd like to ask this though; what is the ratio of legal gun owners vs crimes committed with them. Could it be 0.02% or some figure as little as this? Perhaps another way to ask; how many civilian guns are held legally in the US (or Canada for the same matter) compared to the number of guns used in violent crimes (in a year, let's say). Must be like 1,000,000:1 ratio?

I'm wondering about this figure because I'm trying to understand what you mean by cultural "problem". Can't imagine for a minute that the culture of guns is on the edge of becoming a crisis, or a problem (yet anyway, mind you)


***************
edit:
Just found the answer to my question. Well, perhaps closer to the cause of the problem. I'll venture in to say that your problem with guns is not ownership nor cultural, but "education". Looking at this report most if not all of the armed crimes, violent or not, were committed by individuals with little or no education background whatsoever.

You want your crimes and gun problem to be solved? reform your 'over-priced' education industry nation-wide and that'll go away by itself. School books for free and libraries open source, etc. You get the idea...

[maytag]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

You want your crimes and gun problem to be solved? reform your 'over-priced' education industry nation-wide and that'll go away by itself. School books for free and libraries open source, etc. You get the idea...

Now THAT is something I could get behind!

This is PRECISELY the kind of thing that I'm talking about. Let's find and solve the root problems..... not blame it on the instrument used.

maybe, just maybe, it's easier to see (and say) from the outside looking in. Less skin in the game ?

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