Track brakes

[vijen6]

Hey guys,

After my first DE at Laguna last week, my brakes are gone ( warning lights on ) and tires pretty much needs replacing too.

Next year, I'm planning to do quite a few AX and at least 2-3 D/E at other tracks. Per browsing this forum with all the great advice, I plans are to get Hawk HPS pads on the front and rear for the street and AX.

Then swap out to Hawk HT-10 on the front and Mintex C-Tech in back for D/E. Would run HT-10 @ AX too if I could but I don't think there will be enough time to get HT-10 up to temps on an AX course .. let me know if I'm wrong.

Balo rotors are still fresh so I'll stick with them for now.

A few questions:

1. How drivable is HT-10 on the street ? If I drove the car about 2 hrs each way to / from the event, will that be a problem with these pads ? Would like to avoid swapping pads track side if I can avoid it. Too many things to lug around in the car already.

2. If I just swapped the front out from HPS and to HT-10, and kept the rear as HPS ( not C-Tech ) .. will that upset the car ? Most of the braking is done up front so maybe HPS is enough for the rear ?

3. How do you guys 'warm up' HT-10 at a track ? Just take the first run of each session at a mild aggressive pace ?

Thanks!

[Topless]

Just a couple thoughts to chew on. I have never run the Hawk pads so I cannot comment directly on them but have heard good reports. With 5 yrs and over 60 track days I have gone through a lot of brake products though. Simply running a high temp pad, sound rotors, fresh high temp brake fluid, and 997 GT3 brake ducts has solved all of my braking issues so far.

Other drivers do the pad swap for track days but I am not entirely comfortable with that. For disc brakes to work their best they must be properly bedded in, meaning that pad material actually becomes interlaced with the rotors. Swapping out pads without completely cleaning the rotors and bedding in new pads can cause problems such as rotor gumming from different pad materials and serious rotor judder when hot... been there, done that. I now prefer to just run one pad that works for street and track and live with the compromises knowing that my brakes will always be at their best.

Getting brakes hot enough is really never a problem with good track pads. They have so much bite even when stone cold that you can always easily stop the car. Once the get into their ideal operating temp they just get better.

I didn't really answer your questions directly but I hope some of this is useful to you. Time to change out some brake parts myself now that the season is over.

[jaykay]

You can try braking harder and shorter next time to allow the brakes to cool between turns.....while still being smooth of course

It doesn't feel like it but its actually easier on the brakes than riding them and being gradual with them.

+1 on the GT3 brake ducts...have not melted a sensor with them

[MikenOH]

No experience with Hawk--I think Carbotech XP8's are great--but like topless, I leave mine in all year to this point. When they start get loud on the street I hose off the rotors and that helps for while.
I've thought about putting in Bobcat pads (similar to HPS) in the front, but have found other ways to spend money lately.

[vijen6]

Thanks for the advice. Good point on the rotor / pad bedding topless.

It would be easier and certainly cheaper to run one set of pads for both street and track, though I read ( on this forum ) that its 'false economy'. The HPS while will perform much better on track than stock pads, will wear out much faster than HT-10s will on track while not performing as well as HT-10s. Supposedly in the end having two separate sets will last longer than buying one set used for both twice.

I'll try to locate that thread and link it here.

Re: melted sensor, I do have the GT3 ducts .. not GT3RS .. and my brake warning light came on after the 3rd 30 min session..

[Pat]

FWIW, I used OEM pads on the street and HT-10s at the track. Every time I swap pads I bed them before driving much. Never had a problem of any kind with them, and they work great.
I swap pads at home before going to the track, so the HT-10s can be very loud on the street.

[Mrmaddbrad]

Originally Posted by vijen6

Thanks for the advice. Good point on the rotor / pad bedding topless.

It would be easier and certainly cheaper to run one set of pads for both street and track, though I read ( on this forum ) that its 'false economy'. The HPS while will perform much better on track than stock pads, will wear out much faster than HT-10s will on track while not performing as well as HT-10s. Supposedly in the end having two separate sets will last longer than buying one set used for both twice.

I'll try to locate that thread and link it here.

Re: melted sensor, I do have the GT3 ducts .. not GT3RS .. and my brake warning light came on after the 3rd 30 min session..

In my opinion... If you're worried about money that bad, then you probably shouldn't race very often. It is by no means a poor mans sport. And most of your money will go into tires anyways. I think if you want max performance you can always run your track pads on the streets also. Makes them work better on track days, but you will eat them faster.

I just go for the middle man, as it is not crazy expensive, quiet on the streets, and great on the track....

Driver is going to gain you more time than having better brakes....

[LAP1DOUG]

I have run HT-10's in auto-x and on track with good performance on a BMW M3. About 2 months ago at BMWCCA Oktoberfest, I didn't want to change pads between days, so I ran HT-10's on the street for a few days, took first place in class at the auto-x, then had a great track day at Barber. The HT-10's on the street can make some horrible noises at times, and I hear are tough on discs when cold, so I don't think I would do that long term.

I am thinking about Pagid Blues on my 986 for combination street & track.

[insite]

the hawk HT-10's are fantastic. can't really use it as a street pad unless you don't mind a lot of noise.

it is MUCH cheaper to run track pads at the track & street pads on the street. i used to do the one-pad fits all thing; i'd go through five front sets & three rear sets every year. now that i have dedicated track pads, i usually get 1-2 years out of the track pads & even longer on the street pads.

[Topless]

Originally Posted by insite

the hawk HT-10's are fantastic. can't really use it as a street pad unless you don't mind a lot of noise.

it is MUCH cheaper to run track pads at the track & street pads on the street. i used to do the one-pad fits all thing; i'd go through five front sets & three rear sets every year. now that i have dedicated track pads, i usually get 1-2 years out of the track pads & even longer on the street pads.

Wow! A set of front ST-43 pads last me more than a year... 6K miles/20 track days without swapping. My rears have lasted 3+ years... 15K miles/40 track days. I swap em when they are used up.

Different strokes for different folks.

[insite]

Originally Posted by Topless

Wow! A set of front ST-43 pads last me more than a year... 6K miles/20 track days without swapping. My rears have lasted 3+ years... 15K miles/40 track days. I swap em when they are used up.

Different strokes for different folks.

admittedly, the track i go to the most is absolute hell on brakes. it has three 100mph straights in a row & there is no chance for cool down. also, once i upgraded to S brakes & added the GT3 ducts, things got a lot better.

[nefarious986]

Wow topless, 3+ yrs on the rear even with track use is pretty amazing.

Insite, that hybrid pad are 'false economy' comment i was referring to was your comment here ( Brake pads and DEs ). Laguna is also a heavy braking track, so maybe I'll see the same brake usage that you see.

My concern was with the HT-10 as street pads to 'get to' and 'get from' the track. That way I could just swap them in the day before and take time to bed them instead of have to deal with lugging a jack along with me in the car and swapping them in trackside. If noise is the only problem for short-ish drives ( 1-2 hrs each way ) .. I think I can live with that. Just wanted to make sure that they wont tear up the rotors or mess up in some way if used outside of race condition for a few hrs. Also have you used HT-10 in an AX? I'm thinking that HT10 wont be as effective as HPS in an AX due to the limited amount of time you're actually driving it.

MrMaddbrad, thanks for your advice. I understand that racing is not cheap, and newbie mistakes waste even more time / money so I'm just trying to see what works best for those who've been doing this a while and what combo gives me the best pad life to performance ratio.

[986_c6]

2-3+ years over the course of 20+ track days + street driving is not unheard of with stock Porsche brakes. That is how good the brakes are.

Add race pads and they will stop even better with marginal more wear.

Smoothness and carrying the momentum is key guys. Just like Topless, I have done 75+ track days on Boxster and Vette (some vette guys chew through brand new rotors/pads in ONE day ). They are obviously mashing on the gas/brake too much

[986_c6]

Oops...didn't give a recommendation.

PFC (Performance Friction) Z rated are awesome combo pads. Same with the Porterfields R4S.

If anyone need true race pad opinions, I can give those too as I have used Raybestos ST43's, Cobalt XR2, Hawk DTC60, Hawk DTC70, Porterfield R4, PFC 99's, Mintex Extreme, etc. Never used Pagids.

[thstone]

Here is an excellent article on brake pad selection: Essex - Learning Center - How to Choose the Best Street and Track Brake Pads

I have no affliation with this website, simply found the article to be quite informative and throught it might be helpful to other forum members.

[vijen6]

Hmm .. I can't seem to locate the Mintex CTech M1155 pad to go with my HT10 front .. only places were in the UK.

Does anyone know where I can buy a set .. or if not .. maybe recommend another type of rear pad that goes well with HT10s in front ?

[MaxD]

Since you are running HT10s, why not a set of HT10s or the DTC60s for the back.

What is your rational for wanting the Mintex with the Hawks?

[vijen6]

They don't make HT10s for the back .. I'm just trying to find a comparable match for the rear .. Mintex was just something on the list to try since another member have used them in combination with good success.

I'll take a look at the DTC60s.

[MaxD]

CDOC has both. Part number HB290x.606. The x for the DTC60 is G and S for the HT10. The DTCs are the newer compound that most folks really seem to like.

Disclaimer, I run HT14 F, HT10 R on my M3 and Pagid orange and blacks on the Boxster.

[vijen6]

Sweet .. the part number helped a lot. Will order from CDOC. Thanks!