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12-11-2006, 04:47 PM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Boxster
Why cant i make light of the subject of the geographical locations of where african americans may or may not live.
By your definition of racisit, 85% of black comedians are racisit cause majority of black comedian material consists of making fun of other races... and they are funny as hell, ie: dave chappel... must be the black-KKK poster child by super66 definition of racisim!
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CJ, Carlos, you can make light of whatever you want and I figured as much you had some mexican in you. For your info I am 100% mexican. And reading my first post you'd see I am as big a fan of chapelle and mencia, and to borrow your term I think they are funny as hell too.....
now that said take the time to go read the posts, you really think those were jokes? you aren't seeing how many people are "fed" up woth politically correct? I mean at some point people thought that abolishing slavery was an absurd thought as well. In fact some people were probably fed up with the talks of abolishing slavery, about allowing blacks to be 1 person, not 3/5ths a person or 2/5ths, can you see I'm not that politcaly correct freak yet?
But dude, I'm not chillin with blinders. Think about it, we had someone here post a link to educate the members on how affirmative action does nothing more that allow minorities to be mediocore? hmmm.....do you no the upside? do you know the whole University of Michigan case with affirmitative action? look it up, its hysterical.....
do yourself a fav, search out eslai's post in this thread because he is spot on....like he said, he doesn't remember all the reasoning and arguments but the basis is there....you ever want to know more, PM me, I'll be happy to chat with you about it......just don't go with blinders, not sure if vijen is mexican, black, asian, who cares really, but I've seen cops, and mexicans aren't the only ones that sit on the curb when they get busted, know what I'm saying???
so with that said, I didn't have too much of a problem with vijens post, the ensuing comments yes, 2 in particular, considering some of the statements came from a member who degrades his very own people, I hardly doubt they were made in a joking matter....
Later bro....FYI, I'm a Carlos too.....well chuck, technicalities......
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12-11-2006, 08:41 PM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 3,308
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Hi,
I think the race issue is waaay too complicated to sum up in a single thread on this forum.
But, I also think that PC stifles proper debate, you can't be for some issues and not for others (as an example, one could be for Affirmative Action in education, but oppose favored status for job applications) because PC encompasses the whole Pkg., you cannot pick and choose or you're prejudiced or not PC. I do believe that some minority leaders try to put a collective guilt on all people not of color.
While 4th generation American, I was raised overseas in the '50s, '60s. Race wasn't an issue where I lived, even though there were plenty of non-whites.
Only when we moved back to the States was Race an issue. I was blamed, chided, or discriminated against on numerous occasions because of an assumption of what my people did to Blacks (no racial profiling there of course, associating my skin color with that of the Slave Owners). Certain words which cannot be used by non-minorities, can be used freely by minorities in speech and music, as if the words are non-discriminating so long as they pass through a pair of colored (Black, Red, Brown, anything but non-white) lips.
My ancestors immigrated from Ireland to the US in 1887. In other words, my Great Grandaddy never owned anyone else's Great Grandaddy, so where's the fairness in blaming me and my family for the plight of the Blacks? Or are minorities only interested in achieving Color-Blindness so long as they retain an advantage in doing so?
The Irish were discriminated against horribly when they first arrived in this country, it is well documented. No redress has ever been made of this injustice. The Irish, through the course of a generation, learned to assimilate into the society and rose themselves up out of poverty as have the Germans, Italians, Jews, Poles, Scandinavians and other immigrant groups including many Asian and African immigrants today - through education and hard work. Many Immigrant groups who arrived here, long after many minorities have had their barriers removed, have made much greater strides in a shorter period of time, primarily because they understood and embraced these basic principles.
Society did not accept these groups developing their own subcultures of Language, Dress, mores and still allow them to succeed. Assimilation has always been the doorway to the American Dream. Cultural rites and differences were still retained, revered, and celebrated by these groups within their cultures, such as Columbus Day, St. Patrick's Day, Svenskarnistag Day, St. Stanislaw Day and others.
I could not score less on my SAT and acquire admission to a University. I cannot get low-interest loans for housing, or to start a business, merely based upon the color of my skin, regardless of whether I meet the qualifying standards. I cannot receive favored status on Government or Civil Service job applications. Yet, my people did nothing to subjugate those African ancestors of today's Black population, why am I treated as though they had?
And if, as many people have stated to me over my life, today's preferential treatment of minorities is to make up for past issues of discrimination, when does it end? When will restitution have been made, especially since today's minorities weren't the ones who were actually enslaved?? When will minorities, and Blacks in particular, be responsible for their own lives whether they be a success or a failure?
When a Minority person succeeds in life (regardless of whatever Helping Hand they may or may not have received), they are often commended for having achieved so much, in spite of any barriers.
But, if a Minority person fails, it is Society which is blamed, not the poor judgement or actions (or non-actions) of the individual.
Someone said that if the majority of the population of inner-city jails are minorities, that's not Racial Profiling, it is the Law of Averages (especially if one considers the Inner-city demographics in the US's largest cities).
As I said, too complex a subject to properly delve into here. I'm just disappointed that the Race issue ever came up at all because I never considered anyone on this Forum to merit any more, or less, attention because of their ancestry. I measure a member by the content of their message.
I guess we've lost some of the purity of just being Car Guys and Boxster Owners, and that is disappointing.
But, I believe that if you want something like discrimination to end, you eventually gotta let it go...
Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
Last edited by MNBoxster; 12-12-2006 at 01:33 PM.
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12-11-2006, 08:46 PM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: McKinney, TX
Posts: 474
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Extremely well said Jim.
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12-11-2006, 10:49 PM
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#4
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBoxster
My ancestors immigrated from Ireland to the US in 1887. In other words, my Great Grandaddy never owned anyone else's Great Grandaddy, so where's the fairness in blaming me and my family for the plight of the Blacks? Or are they only interested in achieving Color-Blindness so long as they retain an advantage in doing so?
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Man, it is all about the free ride and has nothing to do with fairness. I was born in Canada, my parents were born in Canada. In Canada we never had slaves. In fact Canada openly welcomed escaped slaves. What color do you think our criminals are? What color do you think our welfare people and ghettos are? The race to crime statistics look a whole lot like the USA. We have quotas at job hiring, at school admission and all those things as well. They cannot say "hey we were slaves in Canada" so instead they make it almost illegal to release statistics. I am glad I live in countries now where no one cares about these things and PC does not exist.
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12-12-2006, 11:39 AM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: nyc
Posts: 23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBoxster
Hi,
The Irish were discriminated against horribly when they first arrived in this country, it is well documented. No redress has ever been made of this injustice. The Irish, through the course of a generation, learned to assimilate into the society and rose themselves up out of poverty as have the Germans, Italians, Jews, Poles, Scandinavians and other immigrant groups including many Asian and African immigrants today - through education and hard work. Many Immigrant groups who arrived here, long after many minorities have had their barriers removed, have made much greater strides in a shorter period of time, primarily because they understood and embraced these basic principles.
Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Terrific perspective added , I would counter 2 points.
The immigrant cultures that overcame discrimination had 2 distinct advantages over blacks.
#1-Strong culture of a strong family unit , never underestimate the value of an active father.
#2-White skin.Assimilation is much easier when Europeans and Latinos had the same skin color as the masses.Blacks have an inherent handicap in assimilation in their skin color.
I will agree that it takes individual desire to rise above any oppressed or depressed cycle, self made or otherwise.Sometimes those individuals need help.
A benevolent society should offer a helping hand to those that need , while not addicting the needy to the handouts.
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12-12-2006, 01:10 PM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 3,308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbth
Terrific perspective added , I would counter 2 points.
The immigrant cultures that overcame discrimination had 2 distinct advantages over blacks.
#1-Strong culture of a strong family unit , never underestimate the value of an active father.
#2-White skin.Assimilation is much easier when Europeans and Latinos had the same skin color as the masses.Blacks have an inherent handicap in assimilation in their skin color.
I will agree that it takes individual desire to rise above any oppressed or depressed cycle, self made or otherwise.Sometimes those individuals need help.
A benevolent society should offer a helping hand to those that need , while not addicting the needy to the handouts.
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Hi,
I think that the points you make have some validity, but were more true in years gone by than they are today.
With respect to point #1, family units were often broken apart under the agrarian slave system prior to the 1870's, and one can even make the same point with the migration of Black fathers to the industrial north in the 1st 1/3 of the last century in search of employment. But, the past 30 years in particular have brought much awareness to the Black community about the importance of men accepting the father's role in the family unit. So I think it's a bit of an overworked excuse now. If they choose to ignore their role, can they still claim ignorance? Can we continue to blame historical precedence over personal choice?
On point #2, basically the same thing. People of Mediterranean, Scandinavian, Italian, Germanic and Eastern European heritage often possess identifying characteristics which can be used to discriminate. The current US population also contains millions of people of color aside from Blacks, again with very distinguishable features. Women too cannot help but bear distinguishing characteristics (God love 'em)  . If one chooses to think ill of them, there's nothing anyone can do.
Political Correctness and Civil Rights legislation cannot legislate one's mind, only one's actions. Legislation can only ensure that opportunity is not denied. So long as we continue to focus on the differences, these issues will continue to exist. Only when we find the common ground of being Americans will these differences fade to insignificance...
Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
Last edited by MNBoxster; 12-12-2006 at 01:18 PM.
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12-12-2006, 01:54 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBoxster
Only when we find the common ground of being Americans will these differences fade to insignificance...
Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Scary thought for me, why should I have to find a common ground? common ground is assimilation. Hitler was looking for common ground too, he really was. I guess the debate and its a big one is who defines common ground?
I mean the original white Americans didn't assimilate to come to this country, we just pretty much ran the people here out...Thanksgiving sound familiar. Got to love Carlos Mencia.
So that's the catch there, who makes the rules?? I was born here, but I'm not ready to let the little culture I do have left fade to insignificance....besides if we join the common ground then what? Can women play at Augusta? Did they ever clear up allowing African-Americans into Augusta? Lesbians can't get in last I heard? Will they still hide behind private club status? I mean will the common ground solve all this? Many view the assimilation argument as avoidance...
"Political Correctness and Civil Rights legislation cannot legislate one's mind, only one's actions."
True, which is why I appreciated Randall's post, I am as guilty as the next guy of stereotyping and profiling and it is something we all fall victim to whether we are aware or unaware of it, but when I see it or am guilty of it, the only way to correct an action/behavior is to identify it.
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12-12-2006, 02:27 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 530
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I've really tried to stay out of this one, but I just had to address this post, so here goes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by super66
"Scary thought for me, why should I have to find a common ground? common ground is assimilation. Hitler was looking for common ground too, he really was. I guess the debate and its a big one is who defines common ground?"
That whole statement was a joke. "Hitler was looking for common ground"?? Really? So he invited people of all nationalities to join him in his country of Arian purity, as long as they agreed to be the same? Really? You know the common ground discussed here is everyone living by the same rules (laws), and not claiming special status. You just insulted Jews everywhere.
"So that's the catch there, who makes the rules?? I was born here, but I'm not ready to let the little culture I do have left fade to insignificance....besides if we join the common ground then what? Can women play at Augusta? Did they ever clear up allowing African-Americans into Augusta? Lesbians can't get in last I heard? Will they still hide behind private club status? I mean will the common ground solve all this? Many view the assimilation argument as avoidance..."
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No one is asking you to give up your "culture". In fact, you are quite free to engage in your culture here in the US... many people died to ensure you of that right... a vast majority of them white, btw. But being of a different culture does not give you special rights, or allow you to live here under different rules. You are just as free as the next guy.
And about the Augusta National? You have the right to form a private club to allow only people of your particular culture to join and participate. That's another one of those rights that a lot of people fought and died for. Guess what... it extend to the Augusta National too.
It seems funny to me that many people don't mind having the rights that are extended to all, but don't want whites to share in, and use, those same rights. Why is that?
FWIW MNJim, I have to agree with pretty much everything you wrote. It was better expressed than my meager writing skills allow.
I'm outta this thread.
__________________
Jack
2000 Boxster S - gone -
2006 Audi A6 Quattro 3.2
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12-12-2006, 03:21 PM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 701
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before we continue the fun anymore, let me just remind people of the fact in case they are jumping in that the problem arose over 2 off color comments...no pun intended.....all this other politically correct and whatever stuff is just a direct result....
my opinion is simple, those 2 statements were wrong, and I'm not the only member to share that sentiment nor the first to express the sentiment
but since people went in every direction to defend those comments......now onward forward
Quote:
"That whole statement was a joke. "Hitler was looking for common ground"?? Really? So he invited people of all nationalities to join him in his country of Arian purity, as long as they agreed to be the same? Really? You know the common ground discussed here is everyone living by the same rules (laws), and not claiming special status. You just insulted Jews everywhere."
hmmmmmm....intersting, a comment with no intent to offend ends up offending someone??? imagine that?? Sorry to any Jew that may have been offended, I was making an analogy, my limited information on Hitler was that he wanted people to posess main common traits, hence common.....man am I sick of this politically correct stuff making me apologize.....yet I'm not happy that you didn't jump in to point out when the mexicans were offended, or the African Americans may have been offended......I mean one member went as far to share such a great story of 2 different sets of African Amercan teens committing a crime back to back in the same day, not sure of the value to the tid bit but yeah whatever
"You know the common ground discussed here is everyone living by the same rules (laws), and not claiming special status."
You know these common rules and laws, constitution bill of rights, they have been amended you do know that right? You know there is always room for change right?
"No one is asking you to give up your "culture". In fact, you are quite free to engage in your culture here in the US... many people died to ensure you of that right... a vast majority of them white, btw. But being of a different culture does not give you special rights, or allow you to live here under different rules. You are just as free as the next guy."
no issue here with the white guy, married a white women and have a 1/2 white kid as a result....but yes, there are lot of people that would love for minorities to give up their culture.....
"And about the Augusta National? You have the right to form a private club to allow only people of your particular culture to join and participate. That's another one of those rights that a lot of people fought and died for. Guess what... it extend to the Augusta National too."
Your right to exclue to me is protecting discrimination but yeah I guess your private club is a cool place.....hey Tiger, want to come golf??? yeah we'll make an exception for you.....hmmmm.....you do know it was once perfectly acceptable to not allow african americans to sit in the front of the bus right? it was a protected right to exclude, to not let them have a full vote, you are aware right??? Sometimes a law that protects does in turn protect the discrimination.
two sides two every coin Jack. But I'm not out of the thread.....
Last edited by super66; 12-12-2006 at 05:28 PM.
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12-12-2006, 04:00 PM
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: nyc
Posts: 23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBoxster
Hi,
I think that the points you make have some validity, but were more true in years gone by than they are today.
With respect to point #1, family units were often broken apart under the agrarian slave system prior to the 1870's, and one can even make the same point with the migration of Black fathers to the industrial north in the 1st 1/3 of the last century in search of employment. But, the past 30 years in particular have brought much awareness to the Black community about the importance of men accepting the father's role in the family unit. So I think it's a bit of an overworked excuse now. If they choose to ignore their role, can they still claim ignorance? Can we continue to blame historical precedence over personal choice?
On point #2, basically the same thing. People of Mediterranean, Scandinavian, Italian, Germanic and Eastern European heritage often possess identifying characteristics which can be used to discriminate. The current US population also contains millions of people of color aside from Blacks, again with very distinguishable features.
Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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The lack of a strong family unit is caused by high incarceration rates , drug use , teenage pregancy rates & low education achievement , low income levels , low housing standards.
As for assimilation , I as a Hispanic had a much easier path to Middle America from the streets of NY than people of color.I have white skin.Black people don't!
The average person cannot fully appreciate the plightof black america.
Try living in the projects , living on public assistance , buy groceries with food stamps, grow up in a one parent household , have to deal with street crime and drugs on a regular basis , visit friends and family in jail , have law enforcement view you as a threat ,live with suffocating peer pressure or have BLACK SKIN.
We will never understand how it feels to be black and we should not think that the problems of the black community are all self inflicted or should be solved by their own resolve.
Everyone is racist to a certain extent, justified or not,
Last post for me on race relations.
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12-12-2006, 04:22 PM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Poway, CA
Posts: 191
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WOW!
very interesting thread. I agree with Jim that something has been lost in the forum now....
can't we just talk about Porsches and having fun with our cars?
everybody has their own thoughts & feelings about race relations
and no internet car forum is going to change them. Is it? Why be divisive when you don't need to be?
But being married to a wonderful mexican lady, lemme tell you discrimination sure does exist in real life, and as a white guy I would have never seen it the way I have being married to her.
BACK TO CARS, EH?
__________________
Arctic Silver 2000 Boxster 3.4l w/Sport Design Package
Supersprint Boxster S Headers/Cats/Muffler
AASCO Lt. Wt FLywheel
Evo Intake
Partial Carbon Interior
Black Leather Sport seats
M030 Sway Bars
Litronics w/ Clear Corners
Boxster S brakes
B&M Short Shifter
PnP rear Speakers + Amp
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12-12-2006, 05:35 PM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kingwood, TX
Posts: 453
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12-12-2006, 06:12 PM
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pecivil
WOW!
very interesting thread. I agree with Jim that something has been lost in the forum now....
can't we just talk about Porsches and having fun with our cars?
everybody has their own thoughts & feelings about race relations
and no internet car forum is going to change them. Is it? Why be divisive when you don't need to be?
But being married to a wonderful mexican lady, lemme tell you discrimination sure does exist in real life, and as a white guy I would have never seen it the way I have being married to her.
BACK TO CARS, EH?
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thanks for the perspective.....a different view from the other side and yes, I thought his was supposed to be about bumpers now
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