Pedros Techno DOF IMS fix?

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by moresquirt

Thx for the pic Kirk,Wow!! I have never seen the two bearings side by side,u are correct thats a monster in comparison.Does it also have a thicker wall?

You can see in the picture that the 6305 bearing has thicker races. The width of the 6204 bearing is 14mm while the 6305 is 17mm wide (or what I believe you are calling thick). So yes, the 6305 bearing is bigger all around. It also has bigger balls...

Kirk Bristol

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Kirk

You can see in the picture that the 6305 bearing has thicker races. The width of the 6204 bearing is 14mm while the 6305 is 17mm wide (or what I believe you are calling thick). So yes, the 6305 bearing is bigger all around. It also has bigger balls...

Kirk Bristol

Ok, lets remember this statement leading into the future when discussing the the problem with the M96 IMSB is only limited to lubrication.

If the problem was limited to lubrication, then Kirk's observation and most recent statements would not be relevant, but they are.

[Jamesp]

It would be nice if you said more Jake. There are folks with their engines not just split, but with every bolt removed, hanging on this conversation. Not that I'll say who though...

[JAAY]

I'm about to put in a dual row ceramic bearing. I don't know if I should just put it in with the front seal removed or with Pedro's dof. Any thoughts? My stock dual row didn't fail and still looks and feels great after I pulled it out.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by JAAY

I'm about to put in a dual row ceramic bearing. I don't know if I should just put it in with the front seal removed or with Pedro's dof. Any thoughts? My stock dual row didn't fail and still looks and feels great after I pulled it out.

That's basically what I am doing - putting in a new bearing, removing the outside seal, and installing the DOF. This is on a 2003 Carrera 4S with single row bearing. I'm just not 100% sure yet if I'm going back in with a SKF steel bearing or a ceramic bearing. I have both in my hands, but my mind is not made up. Transmission came out of the car Sunday. The RMS and IMS are both leaking oil, the IMS is leaking worse. This next weekend I'll get the IMS bearing changed out and oil feed installed. I'll probably start a separate thread with photos about the install and my impressions of the DOF system. So far I really like what I see with it. I got a nice set of instructions with clear photos and details on the install. The quality of the parts seems really good too.

Kirk

[southernstar]

Charles, I think those numbers confirm what what we already know from the lawsuit: all else being equal, the dual-row bearings are more durable/reliable than the single-row bearings. Based upon experience in other applications, we also have reason to believe that a ceramic bearing should be more durable than a steel ball bearing of the same design. However, virtually all invovled in this discussion (including the LN Engineering site as per excerpts already quoted) also suggest that lubrication of the bearing is PART of the problem.

Kirk, I look forward to your updates. With a failure rate of approximately 1%, I would think that if you had a dual-row bearing you would likely be fine with a new dual-row steel bearing and DOF. With the single-row bearing, however, I wonder if the additional cost of a good ceramic bearing might not provide added insurance.

Brad

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Kirk, I look forward to your updates. With a failure rate of approximately 1%, I would think that if you had a dual-row bearing you would likely be fine with a new dual-row steel bearing and DOF. With the single-row bearing, however, I wonder if the additional cost of a good ceramic bearing might not provide added insurance.

I am not worried about cost. I have both - steel and ceramic bearings in my hands. I can put either in my 2003 C4S. The ceramic would be the obvious choice, right? My only concern there is the nylon cage that holds the balls in position. I have been researching this material to see how well it will hold up in a hot environment exposed to synthetic oil constantly. I see manufacturer's temperature specs ranging from 210 to 250 F. But we know that the bearing seal is rated for 250 F and it does not hold up well. I thought I saw that LN Engineering uses a steel cage, but I have not confirmed that. I know that Casper Labs used a steel cage precisely because the temperature limit of the nylon cage is too close to the hot operating limit of a Porsche engine. So I'm not sure I feel comfortable putting a ceramic bearing with a nylon cage in my car... Still reading and researching before this weekend. One advantage of the DOF is that the better lubrication should allow the bearing to run cooler.

Kirk

[thom4782]

Originally Posted by southernstar

...However, virtually all invovled in this discussion (including the LN Engineering site as per excerpts already quoted) also suggest that lubrication of the bearing is PART of the problem.
Brad

When talking about the oiling question, it's importanty to keep in mind there are two very different situations to look at.

Situation #1: Lubrication is a problem with the 'sealed" OEM bearings. When seals leak and oil mixes with grease, then friction increases and the bearing eventually fails. This seems true for both dual and single row bearings.

Situation #2: After someone replaces the IMSB with an "unsealed" bearing, hopefully a ceramic one, sump oil lubricates the open replacement bearing. As I've said many times, the experience to date shows virtually no failures with this oiling method.

So context really matters when talking about lubrication as a problem no matter who is commenting.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

It would be nice if you said more Jake. There are folks with their engines not just split, but with every bolt removed, hanging on this conversation. Not that I'll say who though...

The choice should be very clear to those people that there's only one way to truly solve the problem. I won't try to convince them, because once the development is done, I am done.. I don't sell the parts.

I am a little busy at the moment... Creating another DFI Beast. While other people have just started developing M96 components and entering the market we are on our fourth year of DFI engine development at the next level.

Yeah. They are a few years behind. They know it.

This one is spankin' new out of the crate, built in March of 2013. It's getting fed some Raby steroids.

[JAAY]

Can't wait to afford to buy a different make of sports car to put this entire discussion behind me.

[thom4782]

Here's what I see...

There are no verified in service dual row LN Retrofit failures across the years they have been available. In another forum, one LN developer recently expressed his view that dual row Retrofits are “…pretty much bulletproof and will probably never need replacing.” In theory, DOF will extend the service lifetimes of IMSBs although its developers have never indicated to the best of my knowledge by how much.

So it's up to you. If you believe a belt is sufficient to keep your pants up, the install the Retrofit. If you're a belt and suspenders type person, then you might add DOF into the mix. If you do, make sure you order a LN Retrofit compatible DOF flange.

My car is single row. For me, I'm planning to install an IMS Solution as soon as I can find a competent local installer.

Best of luck.

PS: My personal view from all the data I've seen is that majority of single row OEM bearings failed because they weren't stong enough. Dual row and single row OEM bearing also failed when their seals leaked thereby compromising lubrication.

[Jager]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

I am a little busy at the moment... Creating another DFI Beast. While other people have just started developing M96 components and entering the market we are on our fourth year of DFI engine development at the next level.

Interesting lobes on that cam...