Swapping engines

[JFP in PA]

Similar; the DOF system, contrary to the advertising, draws some of the hottest and dirtiest oil from the cylinder head to feed the bearing. This oil feed has also caused problems with the Vario Cam system on some cars that immediately went away when that oil line was disconncted and plugged. The reason they went this route is because the oiling system of the IMS Solution is covered in a patent. Injecting pressurized oil into the factory bearing also tends to flood the entire IMS shaft, which is problematic at best. The IMS Solution system uses a plug in the shaft behind the Solution to prevent this, and this plug is also covered under one or more of the various patents Jake got on the system.

As for the costs, "you gets what you pays for" in these systems. the Solution is the only one that is well thought out, extremely well designed, and totally permanent. The Solution is also the only iMS retrofit that can be removed from one engine and installed into another without any concern. I have them in both of my personal cars.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Didn't Raby do a roller bearing which was supposed to address the perceived faults of the other common roller bearing IMS? Its write-up of it's advertised benefits might give insight into the possible shortcomings of other offerings.

https://lnengineering.com/products/the-definitive-guide-and-faq-for-porsche-ims-bearings/cylindrical-roller-bearing-ims-retrofit-kits.html

Mike, I didn't know LN offered a roller bearing kit, and after reading from your link I came across a stunning admission/contradiction: "Unlike other commercially available cylindrical roller bearing IMS kits, the RND RS Roller does not require any oil system modifications, so there is no risk of ... oiling efficiency due to pressure losses."

Doesn't the "IMS Solution" require an oil system modification? Things that make you go "hmm."

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Mike, I didn't know LN offered a roller bearing kit, and after reading from your link I came across a stunning admission/contradiction: "Unlike other commercially available cylindrical roller bearing IMS kits, the RND RS Roller does not require any oil system modifications, so there is no risk of ... oiling efficiency due to pressure losses."

Doesn't the "IMS Solution" require an oil system modification? Things that make you go "hmm."

Yes, it does, in the form of a spin on oil filter adaptor that controls the amount of oil going to actual Solution bearing. Having run these retrofits for years, I can clearly attest that there is no observable oiling pressure or efficiency problems with the Solution, it simply works as designed; most of the other retrofit "oiling systems" just tap into an existing oil passage and let the oil flow at whatever rate is there rather than trying to control how much is used.

[elgyqc]

And then there is replacing the original with the same bearing (123bearings.com (NSK BD20-17-A-DDUA17NX01-NSK) $57.79 US plus shipping), but with the outer oil seal removed during installation. The original bearing was in good shape after about 145,000KM (90,000mi) despite having grease that had the consistency of cheese and little oil for lubrication. I can't see why this bearing cannot last a lot longer than the original.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by elgyqc

And then there is replacing the original with the same bearing (123bearings.com (NSK BD20-17-A-DDUA17NX01-NSK) $57.79 US plus shipping), but with the outer oil seal removed during installation. The original bearing was in good shape after about 145,000KM (90,000mi) despite having grease that had the consistency of cheese and little oil for lubrication. I can't see why this bearing cannot last a lot longer than the original.

That would certainly be an economical way to go, Grant, and I'm all for economy. It's your contention that removing the outer oil seal will allow circulating oil to lubricate the bearing? Being from the sump, the oil would be unfiltered. You don't see that as a problem?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

That would certainly be an economical way to go, Grant, and I'm all for economy. It's your contention that removing the outer oil seal will allow circulating oil to lubricate the bearing? Being from the sump, the oil would be unfiltered. You don't see that as a problem?

Better than no oil, but I cannot agree with the bearing choice.

[pilot4fn]

Originally Posted by elgyqc

And then there is replacing the original with the same bearing (123bearings.com (NSK BD20-17-A-DDUA17NX01-NSK) $57.79 US plus shipping), but with the outer oil seal removed during installation. The original bearing was in good shape after about 145,000KM (90,000mi) despite having grease that had the consistency of cheese and little oil for lubrication. I can't see why this bearing cannot last a lot longer than the original.

Where to get the original style locking wire to keep the NSK bearing in place?

[elgyqc]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

That would certainly be an economical way to go, Grant, and I'm all for economy. It's your contention that removing the outer oil seal will allow circulating oil to lubricate the bearing? Being from the sump, the oil would be unfiltered. You don't see that as a problem?

In posts 7 to 10 of this post there is a discussion on this and other aspects of the IMSB replacement
https://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/81929-my-ims-bearing-replacement-thread.html

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Better than no oil, but I cannot agree with the bearing choice.

Is there another, better bearing that is "plug and play"? That is the advantage of the NSK.

[JFP in PA]

I have a problem, particularly with single row engines, of replacing a bearing with a pretty well defined failure rate with brand new copy same thing; statisitically, you are still in the same probablity of failure, so I don't see what you accomplished.

Anytime we replace a know failure point component in these cars, we always try to replace it with something that is better. In the case of the IMS bearings, the once and done forever Solution is the optimal item. If budget constaints preclude the Solution, I would go with one of the LN hybrid bearings long before I would put another factory bearing in the engine. More than once, I have told a prospective customer to take their car somewhere else when they insisted on using the Pelcian kit, roller bearings, or some internet identified factory replacements; we simply have absolutely no confidence in any ot these units, and I will never put my shop's name on a questionable repair.

I recently got into a dialog about trying to find cheap aftermarket main cats for one of these cars, which is pretty much a total crapshoot. I told the poster we only use the factory replacement cats because they are legal in all 50 states, and will always pass both sniffer emissions testing and visual inspections. When the poster complained that the factory cats cost $2K each, I pointed out that one of my customers wacked one of his cats on his Italian super car going over a speed bump, requiring a factory replacement that set him back $14,000, and that if he wanted to drive a cheap to repair car, sell the Porsche and buy something else, these cars are not cheap to buy, much less repair properly.

[LoneWolfGal]

LN Engineering: "The Porsche M96/M97 engine is wet sump (not dry sump). This means the intermediate shaft is submerged in oil, allowing the Porsche IMS bearing to be bathed in and lubricated by the oil in your engine's sump. No forced oiling or direct oil feed is required to lubricate any ball or roller IMS bearing when an open bearing without grease seals is used."

https://lnengineering.com/products/the-definitive-guide-and-faq-for-porsche-ims-bearings.html?limit=all (Fact 9)

LN thereby seems to corroborate Grant's contention that just removing the seals ensures adequate lubrication. And yet, LN beats the drum for the Solution, touting its pressurized direct oil feed. Isn't that unnecessary according to their own statement?

[elgyqc]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I have a problem, particularly with single row engines, of replacing a bearing with a pretty well defined failure rate with brand new copy same thing; statisitically, you are still in the same probability of failure, so I don't see what you accomplished...

JFP, I should have mentioned that the bearing I replaced was a double row... all of my expieriece is with MY 2000 engines with double row bearings... except the replacement engine in my 2000 S which has a single row bearing that was replaced with a LN bearing. I totally agree, I would not replace a single row with the same bearing that came from the factory.

LoneWolfGal, JFP makes the following point in the thread I linked to in previous post...
"5) The oil level only normally reaches the bearing level when the engine is not running; people fail to realize how far down the sump level drops with the engine running, particularly if it is running hard. Porsche put oil scavenging pumps in the cylinder heads for a reason: To get the excess oil trapped in the heads back down to the sump to keep the sump oil pump pickup covered. We actually tested this idea many years ago during an engine dyno test by drilling the case on a track car engine and installing barbed fittings with a clear hose in between them so we could see the oil level at various RPM levels. The oil level drops almost immediately after the engine starts and drops way more when the RPM levels go up. Even under modest engine speeds, the oil level is below the IMS bearing, so removing the rear seal allows oil mist in, not liquid oil."

Later on in the same thread he says...
"We remove the rear seals on the oversized non-serviceable IMS bearings any time we have reason to be in there, or when customer's request it; been doing it for years without any issues.
"

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by elgyqc

LoneWolfGal, JFP makes the following point in the thread I linked to in previous post...
"5) The oil level only normally reaches the bearing level when the engine is not running; people fail to realize how far down the sump level drops with the engine running, particularly if it is running hard. Porsche put oil scavenging pumps in the cylinder heads for a reason: To get the excess oil trapped in the heads back down to the sump to keep the sump oil pump pickup covered. We actually tested this idea many years ago during an engine dyno test by drilling the case on a track car engine and installing barbed fittings with a clear hose in between them so we could see the oil level at various RPM levels. The oil level drops almost immediately after the engine starts and drops way more when the RPM levels go up. Even under modest engine speeds, the oil level is below the IMS bearing, so removing the rear seal allows oil mist in, not liquid oil."

Logical. Surely LN would be aware of that, but in the statement I quoted it didn't seem to be a concern.

Later on in the same thread he says...
"We remove the rear seals on the oversized non-serviceable IMS bearings any time we have reason to be in there, or when customer's request it; been doing it for years without any issues."

Another $400 for the rear main seal. I will of course inspect my new engine's rear seal for evidence it leaked, but I have to assume on an engine with 39K the seal's just fine.

[elgyqc]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

... Another $400 for the rear main seal. I will of course inspect my new engine's rear seal for evidence it leaked, but I have to assume on an engine with 39K the seal's just fine.

I don't understand why you say $400 for the RMS, the seal is between $22 and $35 (Porsche) on the Pelican site and it is a relatively easy install with the flywheel off. Not sure what I would do in your situation... if it is the original seal I would worry that is old enough to be somewhat hardened. If I remember right the seal has been modified to improve its functioning.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

LN Engineering: "The Porsche M96/M97 engine is wet sump (not dry sump). This means the intermediate shaft is submerged in oil, allowing the Porsche IMS bearing to be bathed in and lubricated by the oil in your engine's sump. No forced oiling or direct oil feed is required to lubricate any ball or roller IMS bearing when an open bearing without grease seals is used."

https://lnengineering.com/products/the-definitive-guide-and-faq-for-porsche-ims-bearings.html?limit=all (Fact 9)

LN thereby seems to corroborate Grant's contention that just removing the seals ensures adequate lubrication. And yet, LN beats the drum for the Solution, touting its pressurized direct oil feed. Isn't that unnecessary according to their own statement?

To answer your question, Jake Raby actually ran an IMS Solution for a prolonged period with the oil feed line disconnected during the system development and testing; Jake noted that the IMS Solution survived this without issue on just the oil mist inside the engine. But knowing that Jake is a decided "belt and suspenders" type engineer, he kept the oil feed line, which delivers a slow, controlled amount of oil, because he knew that a lot of the Solutions would end up in track cars where heat build up in the bearing is more severe. He also wanted this product to be a "life of the engine" answer to the original bearing's short comings.

Having had the opportunity to see IMS Solutions after hours of track time on dedicated tract rat cars, I think he did the right thing; these Solutions looked like they just came out of the box.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by elgyqc

I don't understand why you say $400 for the RMS, the seal is between $22 and $35 (Porsche) on the Pelican site and it is a relatively easy install with the flywheel off. Not sure what I would do in your situation... if it is the original seal I would worry that is old enough to be somewhat hardened. If I remember right the seal has been modified to improve its functioning.

D'OH! European Parts Solution's price is $449 for the rear main seal and housing, which I ass-u-me-d would be in the ballpark. Should have checked other suppliers' prices, but the IMS was dominating my attention. I definitely would have before reaching for my debit card. Since the seal's so inexpensive I'd be crazy not to replace it while the engine is out of the car.

https://www.europeanpartssolution.com/rear-main-seal

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

To answer your question, Jake Raby actually ran an IMS Solution for a prolonged period with the oil feed line disconnected during the system development and testing; Jake noted that the IMS Solution survived this without issue on just the oil mist inside the engine. But knowing that Jake is a decided "belt and suspenders" type engineer, he kept the oil feed line, which delivers a slow, controlled amount of oil, because he knew that a lot of the Solutions would end up in track cars where heat build up in the bearing is more severe. He also wanted this product to be a "life of the engine" answer to the original bearing's short comings.

Having had the opportunity to see IMS Solutions after hours of track time on dedicated tract rat cars, I think he did the right thing; these Solutions looked like they just came out of the box.

JFP, I don't doubt that you are absolutely correct about the Solution. I always listen carefully to the Big Dog. Which is not to say that Jake Raby isn't price gouging. As I said to another forum member, if he'd priced the IMS Solution at $999 it would probably sell like hotcakes, and I would undoubtedly convince myself to buy it. But pricing it at almost two grand — that's out of line, if you ask me. That said, your point that a Porsche is an expensive car to own is well taken. I guess it could be worse, though. I could be working on a Bugatti Veyron.

[LoneWolfGal]

A little interlude while I agonize over the IMS decision...

Back in the olden days when I was just a kid, we lived in Reno and I owned a vintage Honda motorcycle, a twin, which I'd bought for $150. As it happened, our house was only a couple blocks from Bill Rudd Motors, a speed shop and Honda motorcycle dealership. I decided to rebuild the Honda's engine, so I bought all the parts from Bill. He and his mechanics, greatly amused by this girl would-be motorcycle mechanic, indulged me.

I spent the entire winter rebuilding that DOHC engine, and when I was finished I pushed the bike over to Bill's so they could help me if it wouldn't start. The whole crew gathered around and I pressed the starter button... and it fired right up and idled smoothly. Bill and his guys all applauded.

What I didn't know then and only found out years later was that Bill Rudd had been a famous Ferrari Team Racing mechanic, worshipped in racing circles. But he was such a humble, unpretentious guy, he never talked about it. At least, not when I was hanging out there, and I used to hang out a lot with Bill and the guys.

Anyway, folks, although I couldn't appreciate it at the time, I rubbed shoulders with racing royalty!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

JFP, I don't doubt that you are absolutely correct about the Solution. I always listen carefully to the Big Dog. Which is not to say that Jake Raby isn't price gouging. As I said to another forum member, if he'd priced the IMS Solution at $999 it would probably sell like hotcakes, and I would undoubtedly convince myself to buy it. But pricing it at almost two grand — that's out of line, if you ask me. That said, your point that a Porsche is an expensive car to own is well taken. I guess it could be worse, though. I could be working on a Bugatti Veyron.

Jake doesn't make or sell parts, but he does own the patent(s) rights to the Solution; the actual product is made by LN Engineering, Jake just takes a cut off the top on every sale, which is his right as he spent all the design and testing to destruction time of the various iterations of the Solution before settling on the final design and then patenting it.

As for the price, you get a lot of beautifully engineered stuff in the kit, all of proven to work; and what no one seems to take into account is that it will never need replacing, unlike every other IMS retrofits, including the LN units. So it is once and done as long as the engine lives. And even then it could be transferred to another engine. We have a customer that got a single row Solution at around 60K miles; the car is now approaching 200K miles and it is still in there doing its thing. The only thing we ever replaced on it was the braided SS hose that carries the oil from the filter housing to the Solution after a tire kicked up something the smacked it pretty hard, and even then, it wasn't leaking, just ugly; so we replaced the line as preventative maintenance.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Jake doesn't make or sell parts, but he does own the patent(s) rights to the Solution; the actual product is made by LN Engineering, Jake just takes a cut off the top on every sale, which is his right as he spent all the design and testing to destruction time of the various iterations of the Solution before settling on the final design and then patenting it.

Interesting. In that case, if all references to Jake are replaced with LN Engineering, I stand by what I said about price gouging. After all, we're not discussing an interocitor here, just a relatively common bearing with a direct oil feed.

As for the price, you get a lot of beautifully engineered stuff in the kit, all of proven to work; and what no one seems to take into account is that it will never need replacing, unlike every other IMS retrofits, including the LN units. So it is once and done as long as the engine lives. And even then it could be transferred to another engine. We have a customer that got a single row Solution at around 60K miles; the car is now approaching 200K miles and it is still in there doing its thing. The only thing we ever replaced on it was the braided SS hose that carries the oil from the filter housing to the Solution after a tire kicked up something the smacked it pretty hard, and even then, it wasn't leaking, just ugly; so we replaced the line as preventative maintenance.

Doggone it, JFP, you're making this decision really tough! If cost were no object I would just fork over the $1900, because the 39K M96 deserves the very best. But alas, cost is an object. And then there's the uncomfortable feeling that cost-wise I'd be getting fleeced by LN, which certainly factors in. The second point falls under "general principles."

But it sure would be nice to never have to worry about the IMS again... Doggone it, JFP!

[LoneWolfGal]

I'm giving Pedro's technoFix DOF another look.

From Pedro's site, describing his product: "[O]ur oil supply to the DOF uses oil which has passed through the filter and then through the cooler, before it goes onto the IMS bearing. ... This oil feed is supplied by the factory, so there is no drilling or tapping on the engine, simply screwing on a (supplied) adapter."

https://pedrosgarage.com/site-4/dof-info.html

If it's true that cool, filtered oil lubricates the bearing then Pedro's technoFIX is equivalent to LN's Solution for less than half the cost. The price for the technoFIX is $800, which doesn't include the bearing, $50 for single row or $100 for double. (At this point I don't know which one my new engine has. I'll need a bearing extractor and the doohickeys to lock the cams and remove the timing chain tensioners before I can find out.)

I emailed Pedro and asked for a better description and/or photo of the aforementioned screw-on adapter for the oil feed. The other end of the oil line is connected to the flange, like LN's Solution.