Swapping engines

[LoneWolfGal]

LN Engineering: "The Porsche M96/M97 engine is wet sump (not dry sump). This means the intermediate shaft is submerged in oil, allowing the Porsche IMS bearing to be bathed in and lubricated by the oil in your engine's sump. No forced oiling or direct oil feed is required to lubricate any ball or roller IMS bearing when an open bearing without grease seals is used."

https://lnengineering.com/products/the-definitive-guide-and-faq-for-porsche-ims-bearings.html?limit=all (Fact 9)

LN thereby seems to corroborate Grant's contention that just removing the seals ensures adequate lubrication. And yet, LN beats the drum for the Solution, touting its pressurized direct oil feed. Isn't that unnecessary according to their own statement?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

LN Engineering: "The Porsche M96/M97 engine is wet sump (not dry sump). This means the intermediate shaft is submerged in oil, allowing the Porsche IMS bearing to be bathed in and lubricated by the oil in your engine's sump. No forced oiling or direct oil feed is required to lubricate any ball or roller IMS bearing when an open bearing without grease seals is used."

https://lnengineering.com/products/the-definitive-guide-and-faq-for-porsche-ims-bearings.html?limit=all (Fact 9)

LN thereby seems to corroborate Grant's contention that just removing the seals ensures adequate lubrication. And yet, LN beats the drum for the Solution, touting its pressurized direct oil feed. Isn't that unnecessary according to their own statement?

To answer your question, Jake Raby actually ran an IMS Solution for a prolonged period with the oil feed line disconnected during the system development and testing; Jake noted that the IMS Solution survived this without issue on just the oil mist inside the engine. But knowing that Jake is a decided "belt and suspenders" type engineer, he kept the oil feed line, which delivers a slow, controlled amount of oil, because he knew that a lot of the Solutions would end up in track cars where heat build up in the bearing is more severe. He also wanted this product to be a "life of the engine" answer to the original bearing's short comings.

Having had the opportunity to see IMS Solutions after hours of track time on dedicated tract rat cars, I think he did the right thing; these Solutions looked like they just came out of the box.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

To answer your question, Jake Raby actually ran an IMS Solution for a prolonged period with the oil feed line disconnected during the system development and testing; Jake noted that the IMS Solution survived this without issue on just the oil mist inside the engine. But knowing that Jake is a decided "belt and suspenders" type engineer, he kept the oil feed line, which delivers a slow, controlled amount of oil, because he knew that a lot of the Solutions would end up in track cars where heat build up in the bearing is more severe. He also wanted this product to be a "life of the engine" answer to the original bearing's short comings.

Having had the opportunity to see IMS Solutions after hours of track time on dedicated tract rat cars, I think he did the right thing; these Solutions looked like they just came out of the box.

JFP, I don't doubt that you are absolutely correct about the Solution. I always listen carefully to the Big Dog. Which is not to say that Jake Raby isn't price gouging. As I said to another forum member, if he'd priced the IMS Solution at $999 it would probably sell like hotcakes, and I would undoubtedly convince myself to buy it. But pricing it at almost two grand — that's out of line, if you ask me. That said, your point that a Porsche is an expensive car to own is well taken. I guess it could be worse, though. I could be working on a Bugatti Veyron.

[LoneWolfGal]

A little interlude while I agonize over the IMS decision...

Back in the olden days when I was just a kid, we lived in Reno and I owned a vintage Honda motorcycle, a twin, which I'd bought for $150. As it happened, our house was only a couple blocks from Bill Rudd Motors, a speed shop and Honda motorcycle dealership. I decided to rebuild the Honda's engine, so I bought all the parts from Bill. He and his mechanics, greatly amused by this girl would-be motorcycle mechanic, indulged me.

I spent the entire winter rebuilding that DOHC engine, and when I was finished I pushed the bike over to Bill's so they could help me if it wouldn't start. The whole crew gathered around and I pressed the starter button... and it fired right up and idled smoothly. Bill and his guys all applauded.

What I didn't know then and only found out years later was that Bill Rudd had been a famous Ferrari Team Racing mechanic, worshipped in racing circles. But he was such a humble, unpretentious guy, he never talked about it. At least, not when I was hanging out there, and I used to hang out a lot with Bill and the guys.

Anyway, folks, although I couldn't appreciate it at the time, I rubbed shoulders with racing royalty!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

JFP, I don't doubt that you are absolutely correct about the Solution. I always listen carefully to the Big Dog. Which is not to say that Jake Raby isn't price gouging. As I said to another forum member, if he'd priced the IMS Solution at $999 it would probably sell like hotcakes, and I would undoubtedly convince myself to buy it. But pricing it at almost two grand — that's out of line, if you ask me. That said, your point that a Porsche is an expensive car to own is well taken. I guess it could be worse, though. I could be working on a Bugatti Veyron.

Jake doesn't make or sell parts, but he does own the patent(s) rights to the Solution; the actual product is made by LN Engineering, Jake just takes a cut off the top on every sale, which is his right as he spent all the design and testing to destruction time of the various iterations of the Solution before settling on the final design and then patenting it.

As for the price, you get a lot of beautifully engineered stuff in the kit, all of proven to work; and what no one seems to take into account is that it will never need replacing, unlike every other IMS retrofits, including the LN units. So it is once and done as long as the engine lives. And even then it could be transferred to another engine. We have a customer that got a single row Solution at around 60K miles; the car is now approaching 200K miles and it is still in there doing its thing. The only thing we ever replaced on it was the braided SS hose that carries the oil from the filter housing to the Solution after a tire kicked up something the smacked it pretty hard, and even then, it wasn't leaking, just ugly; so we replaced the line as preventative maintenance.

[elgyqc]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I have a problem, particularly with single row engines, of replacing a bearing with a pretty well defined failure rate with brand new copy same thing; statisitically, you are still in the same probability of failure, so I don't see what you accomplished...

JFP, I should have mentioned that the bearing I replaced was a double row... all of my expieriece is with MY 2000 engines with double row bearings... except the replacement engine in my 2000 S which has a single row bearing that was replaced with a LN bearing. I totally agree, I would not replace a single row with the same bearing that came from the factory.

LoneWolfGal, JFP makes the following point in the thread I linked to in previous post...
"5) The oil level only normally reaches the bearing level when the engine is not running; people fail to realize how far down the sump level drops with the engine running, particularly if it is running hard. Porsche put oil scavenging pumps in the cylinder heads for a reason: To get the excess oil trapped in the heads back down to the sump to keep the sump oil pump pickup covered. We actually tested this idea many years ago during an engine dyno test by drilling the case on a track car engine and installing barbed fittings with a clear hose in between them so we could see the oil level at various RPM levels. The oil level drops almost immediately after the engine starts and drops way more when the RPM levels go up. Even under modest engine speeds, the oil level is below the IMS bearing, so removing the rear seal allows oil mist in, not liquid oil."

Later on in the same thread he says...
"We remove the rear seals on the oversized non-serviceable IMS bearings any time we have reason to be in there, or when customer's request it; been doing it for years without any issues.
"

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by elgyqc

LoneWolfGal, JFP makes the following point in the thread I linked to in previous post...
"5) The oil level only normally reaches the bearing level when the engine is not running; people fail to realize how far down the sump level drops with the engine running, particularly if it is running hard. Porsche put oil scavenging pumps in the cylinder heads for a reason: To get the excess oil trapped in the heads back down to the sump to keep the sump oil pump pickup covered. We actually tested this idea many years ago during an engine dyno test by drilling the case on a track car engine and installing barbed fittings with a clear hose in between them so we could see the oil level at various RPM levels. The oil level drops almost immediately after the engine starts and drops way more when the RPM levels go up. Even under modest engine speeds, the oil level is below the IMS bearing, so removing the rear seal allows oil mist in, not liquid oil."

Logical. Surely LN would be aware of that, but in the statement I quoted it didn't seem to be a concern.

Later on in the same thread he says...
"We remove the rear seals on the oversized non-serviceable IMS bearings any time we have reason to be in there, or when customer's request it; been doing it for years without any issues."

Another $400 for the rear main seal. I will of course inspect my new engine's rear seal for evidence it leaked, but I have to assume on an engine with 39K the seal's just fine.

[elgyqc]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

... Another $400 for the rear main seal. I will of course inspect my new engine's rear seal for evidence it leaked, but I have to assume on an engine with 39K the seal's just fine.

I don't understand why you say $400 for the RMS, the seal is between $22 and $35 (Porsche) on the Pelican site and it is a relatively easy install with the flywheel off. Not sure what I would do in your situation... if it is the original seal I would worry that is old enough to be somewhat hardened. If I remember right the seal has been modified to improve its functioning.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by elgyqc

I don't understand why you say $400 for the RMS, the seal is between $22 and $35 (Porsche) on the Pelican site and it is a relatively easy install with the flywheel off. Not sure what I would do in your situation... if it is the original seal I would worry that is old enough to be somewhat hardened. If I remember right the seal has been modified to improve its functioning.

D'OH! European Parts Solution's price is $449 for the rear main seal and housing, which I ass-u-me-d would be in the ballpark. Should have checked other suppliers' prices, but the IMS was dominating my attention. I definitely would have before reaching for my debit card. Since the seal's so inexpensive I'd be crazy not to replace it while the engine is out of the car.

https://www.europeanpartssolution.com/rear-main-seal

[elgyqc]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

D'OH! European Parts Solution's price is $449 for the rear main seal and housing, which I ass-u-me-d would be in the ballpark. Should have checked other suppliers' prices, but the IMS was dominating my attention. I definitely would have before reaching for my debit card. Since the seal's so inexpensive I'd be crazy not to replace it while the engine is out of the car.

https://www.europeanpartssolution.com/rear-main-seal

First time I ever heard of this product. I have read that on some engines the RMS leak is a problem but I have only replaced the seal as preventive maintenance. The old seals were not really leaking only seeping a little.

[Gilles]

also a faulty oil/coolant heat exchanger also could create the similar symptoms, easier to fix than a head with a crack as you mentioned overheating.. :-(.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by Gilles

also a faulty oil/coolant heat exchanger also could create the similar symptoms, easier to fix than a head with a crack as you mentioned overheating.. :-(.

The old engine will be going to a guy in Roseburg. I'll relay that to him.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

The old engine will be going to a guy in Roseburg. I'll relay that to him.

LoneWolfGal, I sent you a PM

[LoneWolfGal]

Those of you who have hoisted an M96, where on the engine did you attach the hoist's chains via metal straps bolted to these attachment points?

[elgyqc]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

Those of you who have hoisted an M96, where on the engine did you attach the hoist's chains via metal straps bolted to these attachment points?

I use heavy duty nylon rachat straps that I put around the crankshaft pulley in the front and around the transmission in the rear, if the transmission is still attached, or the engine stand adaptor if it is being installed on the engine stand.

[pilot4fn]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

Those of you who have hoisted an M96, where on the engine did you attach the hoist's chains via metal straps bolted to these attachment points?

Same style like elgyqc on previous message, but I routed the heavy duty (2000kg) ratchet strap apround both cyliner blocks being veeeeery careful not to allow the strap to compress anything besides the cylinder blocks.
Connected both ends of the strap at the center above the cranckcase. Worked real well and engine stayed level during the lift to engine stand. Same on oppsite direction as the engine built was ready.

[JFP in PA]

You sure that isn't an installed price?

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

You sure that isn't an installed price?

That's what I asked them, but they're slow to respond. However, I tried to make it clear that the bearing was intended for the new engine before I put it in the car. That would explain the high price, though. Would your shop install the bearing for that kind of money?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

That's what I asked them, but they're slow to respond. However, I tried to make it clear that the bearing was intended for the new engine before I put it in the car. That would explain the high price, though. Would your shop install the bearing for that kind of money?

Depending upon the vehicle (Tip vs manual), and what else needs to done at the same time, but it is in the right ballpark.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

That's what I asked them, but they're slow to respond. However, I tried to make it clear that the bearing was intended for the new engine before I put it in the car. That would explain the high price, though. Would your shop install the bearing for that kind of money?

Luke at Sunset Parts is a gentleman and a very supportive person, however it seems that they are a bit over helmed and that could be the reason of their slow response.
..