Worth it to 'check' IMS bearing during clutch? Clutch recommendations?

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

Nothing last's forever, Craftsman tools lifetime warranty is part of what sent Sears into bankruptcy !

Craftsman has been offering a lifetime warranty for decades, that's not what caused Sears to go bankrupt. If it was the case, Lowe's, NAPA and other retailers wouldn't have taken on the brand afterwards.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by beater986

Just for clarity...the car already has LN's IMS Solution, installed by one of the previous owners at unknown mileage.

Are you suggesting to preventively reinstall another?

Otherwise, what mileage are they good for?

The warranty is only good for 5 years, regardless of mileage.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by imhighlander

Is it crazy to just replace the IMS bearing whenever you replace the clutch? Since you're "in there" it may be worth the additional peace of mind. I know it adds another $700 or so to the price of the job but that seems like pretty inexpensive insurance.

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

Yes, it will outlive your engine.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by beater986

Just for clarity...the car already has LN's IMS Solution, installed by one of the previous owners at unknown mileage.

Are you suggesting to preventively reinstall another?

Otherwise, what mileage are they good for?

The IMS Solution does not need to be replaced, ever.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Yes, it will outlive your engine.

You state that with such confidence, and you're most likely correct, but why doesn't the actual manufacturer have the same confidence and offer a lifetime warranty instead of just a 5 year?

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

The IMS Solution does not need to be replaced, ever.

Repeat of post 25.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

You state that with such confidence, and you're most likely correct, but why doesn't the actual manufacturer have the same confidence and offer a lifetime warranty instead of just a 5 year?

Simple: They don't have to. They have done their homework, patented the design, and have the reputation with more than 25,000 units successfully installed.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Simple: They don't have to. They have done their homework, patented the design, and have the reputation with more than 25,000 units successfully installed.

Actually, from their own website, only "...3,000 IMS Solutions installed since 2008".

https://lnengineering.com/products/ims-bearing-kits-for-porsche-m96-97-engines/ims-solution/ims-solution-for-single-row-ims-my00-05.html

Of course they've sold other products, but we're talking about the "IMS Solution."

Like I said, I'm sure it's a great product and I'm not trying to take anything away from it or from you. I have a great deal of respect for you and your vast knowledge on these cars.

But you seem to have more confidence in it than LN Engineering does.

[RobT987]

Originally Posted by piper6909

The warranty is only good for 5 years, regardless of mileage.

That sounds like a better warranty than Porsche's standard powertrain warranty.

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[piper6909]

Originally Posted by RobT987

That sounds like a better warranty than Porsche's standard powertrain warranty.

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Yes, but Porsche never claimed that the car was a "permanent solution"

I have $45 brake pads on my Subaru with a better warranty.

[tonythetiger]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Many companies offer lifetime warranties for items costing much less than that. Snap-on tools, Delta faucets, Raybestos brakes, ect. etc.

When they charge $1850 for a kit that cost them less than $100 to manufacture (yes, I understand a percentage goes for R&D, but not THAT much), and call it a "permanent solution" they should put their money where their mouth is.

If they won't ever fail then it wouldn't be a bad business decision, would it? They already pre-qualify the health of the engine before the "solution" gets installed, and only honor their current warranty if it is installed by an authorized mechanic, so DIYers are shut out. After all that, why would it be a bad business decision to offer a lifetime warranty?

EPS offers the same warranty as LN, but their product is less than 1/3 the cost of the LN "solution." And they don't void the warranty if an DIYer installs it.

I actually believe that the LN Solution may be a better product, so I'm not here to argue which is better. But at more than 3 times the cost, they should offer much, much better warranty, IMO.

I think Im right there with you Piper. Do the math and the numbers for revenue with LN, RND, IMSolution (same people?) around this bearing and its staggering. R & D really isnt an issue. They are modifying a flange that has already been engineered. A buddy (career car engineer but still) in Detroit sourced 25 dollar bearings (yep, 25 dollars for the double row, or 70 for ceramic doublerow) and would make modified flanges on a lathe to fix a few race cars back in the day. None of them failed. His words: "Its a simple problem, mounting a bearing, please."
The power of volume makes the cost of manufacture for these kits against the retail price LN et. al. charges opportunistic. IMHO, they took advantage of the community and should be fabulously wealthy from it. Im not mad about it, but dont like to see folks taken advantage of either by fear that has in part been propagated by those with the most to gain. and gain they did. They could have insured the solution with underwriting for pennies.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Yes, but Porsche never claimed that the car was a "permanent solution"

Actually they did (indirectly) as Porsche considered the IMS was a 'Non Serviceable Item' which (by the way) you could not buy from them by itself.
.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by tonythetiger

Im not mad about it, but dont like to see folks taken advantage of either by fear that has in part been propagated by those with the most to gain. and gain they did. They could have insured the solution with underwriting for pennies.

This is so well-stated. Some have bristled when I've suggested there's an agenda behind most of the "help" they offer to the community, even when seemingly unrelated to their products. This is a more overt example.

Personally, I find it offensive that they continue to suggest that "they" (their little circle) are the only ones qualified to work on these cars, or modify, or tune. And those who aren't in that circle but who've "bought into the myth" remind me of the lambs in the back yard who follow my wife around everywhere just hoping she'll pat them on the head.

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[piper6909]

Originally Posted by Gilles

Actually they did (indirectly) as Porsche considered the IMS was a 'Non Serviceable Item' which (by the way) you could not buy from them by itself.
.

"Indirectly" is the operative word there. LN is quite direct in their claim of "permanent solution." And Porsche is correct, it is a non-serviceable item. No bearing is serviceable.

I haven't tried buying one off Porsche, but my guess is that it's sold with the IMS as an assembly. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to only sell certain parts as part of an assembly.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by tonythetiger

I think Im right there with you Piper. Do the math and the numbers for revenue with LN, RND, IMSolution (same people?) around this bearing and its staggering. R & D really isnt an issue. They are modifying a flange that has already been engineered. A buddy (career car engineer but still) in Detroit sourced 25 dollar bearings (yep, 25 dollars for the double row, or 70 for ceramic doublerow) and would make modified flanges on a lathe to fix a few race cars back in the day. None of them failed. His words: "Its a simple problem, mounting a bearing, please."
The power of volume makes the cost of manufacture for these kits against the retail price LN et. al. charges opportunistic. IMHO, they took advantage of the community and should be fabulously wealthy from it. Im not mad about it, but dont like to see folks taken advantage of either by fear that has in part been propagated by those with the most to gain. and gain they did. They could have insured the solution with underwriting for pennies.

Yes, I've found quality Japanese bearings for under $20 (single row). They're not special, they are actually quite common in size. I haven't found the ceramic ones yet, but if Burner did, they're out there.

But to give LN some credit, they made (At least I don't think they source) a plain bearing which is far better than a ball or cylindrical bearing. And I have no doubt it's a quality product. But damn, at that price, stand behind it for more than 5 years.

Besides, everyone says that the real problem is lubrication, anyway. Even LN says that. So it really doesn't matter if it's a ball, cylindrical or plain bearing, because the loads on it are well below their ratings.

Either way, when I can source a replacement motor for around $4,000, I doubt I'd buy the "Solution" at that price even if they guaranteed it for life. Because chances are something else could blow up my engine. It's a crap shoot.

If you want us to believe it's the permanent solution, warranty it as such. It's just the principle of the thing, you know?

[JFP in PA]

Guys, I only try to educate people about the available technology for the vehicle based upon my direct experience with it; at the end of the day, it is your car and your money. If you want to buy a $20 IMS bearing because you do not like the way someone else warrantees theirs, be my guest, no one is holding a gun you your head to make you purchase something else.......................

[mikefocke]

We live in the world with accounting rules. As soon as LN extends the warranty, the accountants rules will cause them to hold a higher reserve for warranty repairs. Thus not as much profit and/or not as much money to invest in the next product. Eventually the IMS buys will dry up.

Having talked to the inventors, they have high confidence that the probable lifetime is ...

Heck, most of their dual rows are now beyond the 5 year point and I don't see any of the 5 forums I visit daily filled with tales of woe.

If I were making this choice, if I were investing in lots of preventative measures inside the engine, no doubt which I'd specify.

If I were to look hard at my situation and only see the car staying with me for 3-5 years it would be a different choice.

28 other failure points and driver error can total the car for practical purposes.

[tonythetiger]

Originally Posted by maytag

This is so well-stated. Some have bristled when I've suggested there's an agenda behind most of the "help" they offer to the community, even when seemingly unrelated to their products. This is a more overt example.

Personally, I find it offensive that they continue to suggest that "they" (their little circle) are the only ones qualified to work on these cars, or modify, or tune. And those who aren't in that circle but who've "bought into the myth" remind me of the lambs in the back yard who follow my wife around everywhere just hoping she'll pat them on the head.

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and do the math...30K plus units at 900 - 1900 dollars? Add it up! Ive wondered if one of them would pop up and try to defend themselves with stories of research and development costs, but that is fiction. This wasn't solution development, it's an adjustment to existing engineering.

JFP, I speak for everyone cool, we appreciate your weigh-in, intellect, experience and time. Thanks. BTL

[tonythetiger]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

We live in the world with accounting rules. As soon as LN extends the warranty, the accountants rules will cause them to hold a higher reserve for warranty repairs. Thus not as much profit and/or not as much money to invest in the next product.

Accounting rules? They aren't publically traded, and they don't need cash reserve for warranty even if they were. If they extended the warranty, they would buy insurance; they even have a cost-positive option with offering insurance as an add-on. given the stated track record, insurance companies would consider this free money.
invest in next product? They are dealers for various manufacturers and automotive fabricators. They didnt "invent" anything when it comes to the IMS retrofit.

Smiles

[thom4782]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Guys, I only try to educate people about the available technology for the vehicle based upon my direct experience with it; at the end of the day, it is your car and your money. If you want to buy a $20 IMS bearing because you do not like the way someone else warrantees theirs, be my guest, no one is holding a gun you your head to make you purchase something else.......................

JFP says it best. It's your choice to spend your money with whatever developer you want. Factor in the their various warranties into your price calculations, but there is little value in bemoaning the developers' business decisions.