Worth it to 'check' IMS bearing during clutch? Clutch recommendations?

[imhighlander]

Is it crazy to just replace the IMS bearing whenever you replace the clutch? Since you're "in there" it may be worth the additional peace of mind. I know it adds another $700 or so to the price of the job but that seems like pretty inexpensive insurance.

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by imhighlander

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

That's what they claim, but they only guarantee it for 5 years.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

That's what they claim, but they only guarantee it for 5 years.

Which is actually longer than the warranty Porsche gave on your entire car when it was brand new.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Which is actually longer than the warranty Porsche gave on your entire car when it was brand new.

Point taken, but I don't recall Porsche claiming their car is the "permanent solution" for your car needs. Do you?

If they claim it's the "permanent solution", they should put their money where their mouth is and make it a lifetime warranty. They charge enough for the item. That's all I'm saying.

They do warranty it for unlimited miles, but you better get those unlimited miles in within 5 years.

They know that for most people these aren't their daily drivers, so they threw the unlimited miles warranty in there to make it look good, but knowing full well that most cars will get far less than 50k in those 5 years.

I'm not taking anything away from the product, but why not just guarantee it forever? Most likely something else will blow up the engine anyway.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Point taken, but I don't recall Porsche claiming their car is the "permanent solution" for your car needs. Do you?

If they claim it's the "permanent solution", they should put their money where their mouth is and make it a lifetime warranty. They charge enough for the item. That's all I'm saying.

They do warranty it for unlimited miles, but you better get those unlimited miles in within 5 years.

They know that for most people these aren't their daily drivers, so they threw the unlimited miles warranty in there to make it look good, but knowing full well that most cars will get far less than 50k in those 5 years.

I'm not taking anything away from the product, but why not just guarantee it forever? Most likely something else will blow up the engine anyway.

Simple: It would be a bad business decision. If Porsche would only give you a prorated 4 year warrantee on a $60K + purchase, why should someone offer you a lifetime warrantee on a less than $2K purchase. At the end of the day, you don't have to buy their products if you can find anything with a better warrantee than they offer. To my knowledge, most of the "me too" retrofits don't even approach what LN offers.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Simple: It would be a bad business decision...why should someone offer you a lifetime warrantee on a less than $2K purchase. ...To my knowledge, most of the "me too" retrofits don't even approach what LN offers.

Many companies offer lifetime warranties for items costing much less than that. Snap-on tools, Delta faucets, Raybestos brakes, ect. etc.

When they charge $1850 for a kit that cost them less than $100 to manufacture (yes, I understand a percentage goes for R&D, but not THAT much), and call it a "permanent solution" they should put their money where their mouth is.

If they won't ever fail then it wouldn't be a bad business decision, would it? They already pre-qualify the health of the engine before the "solution" gets installed, and only honor their current warranty if it is installed by an authorized mechanic, so DIYers are shut out. After all that, why would it be a bad business decision to offer a lifetime warranty?

EPS offers the same warranty as LN, but their product is less than 1/3 the cost of the LN "solution." And they don't void the warranty if an DIYer installs it.

I actually believe that the LN Solution may be a better product, so I'm not here to argue which is better. But at more than 3 times the cost, they should offer much, much better warranty, IMO.

[tonythetiger]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Many companies offer lifetime warranties for items costing much less than that. Snap-on tools, Delta faucets, Raybestos brakes, ect. etc.

When they charge $1850 for a kit that cost them less than $100 to manufacture (yes, I understand a percentage goes for R&D, but not THAT much), and call it a "permanent solution" they should put their money where their mouth is.

If they won't ever fail then it wouldn't be a bad business decision, would it? They already pre-qualify the health of the engine before the "solution" gets installed, and only honor their current warranty if it is installed by an authorized mechanic, so DIYers are shut out. After all that, why would it be a bad business decision to offer a lifetime warranty?

EPS offers the same warranty as LN, but their product is less than 1/3 the cost of the LN "solution." And they don't void the warranty if an DIYer installs it.

I actually believe that the LN Solution may be a better product, so I'm not here to argue which is better. But at more than 3 times the cost, they should offer much, much better warranty, IMO.

I think Im right there with you Piper. Do the math and the numbers for revenue with LN, RND, IMSolution (same people?) around this bearing and its staggering. R & D really isnt an issue. They are modifying a flange that has already been engineered. A buddy (career car engineer but still) in Detroit sourced 25 dollar bearings (yep, 25 dollars for the double row, or 70 for ceramic doublerow) and would make modified flanges on a lathe to fix a few race cars back in the day. None of them failed. His words: "Its a simple problem, mounting a bearing, please."
The power of volume makes the cost of manufacture for these kits against the retail price LN et. al. charges opportunistic. IMHO, they took advantage of the community and should be fabulously wealthy from it. Im not mad about it, but dont like to see folks taken advantage of either by fear that has in part been propagated by those with the most to gain. and gain they did. They could have insured the solution with underwriting for pennies.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Point taken, but I don't recall Porsche claiming their car is the "permanent solution" for your car needs. Do you?

If they claim it's the "permanent solution", they should put their money where their mouth is and make it a lifetime warranty. They charge enough for the item. That's all I'm saying.

They do warranty it for unlimited miles, but you better get those unlimited miles in within 5 years.

They know that for most people these aren't their daily drivers, so they threw the unlimited miles warranty in there to make it look good, but knowing full well that most cars will get far less than 50k in those 5 years.

I'm not taking anything away from the product, but why not just guarantee it forever? Most likely something else will blow up the engine anyway.

Nothing last's forever, Craftsman tools lifetime warranty is part of what sent Sears into bankruptcy !

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

Nothing last's forever, Craftsman tools lifetime warranty is part of what sent Sears into bankruptcy !

Craftsman has been offering a lifetime warranty for decades, that's not what caused Sears to go bankrupt. If it was the case, Lowe's, NAPA and other retailers wouldn't have taken on the brand afterwards.

[boxster]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Point taken, but I don't recall Porsche claiming their car is the "permanent solution" for your car needs. Do you?

If they claim it's the "permanent solution", they should put their money where their mouth is and make it a lifetime warranty. They charge enough for the item. That's all I'm saying.

They do warranty it for unlimited miles, but you better get those unlimited miles in within 5 years.

They know that for most people these aren't their daily drivers, so they threw the unlimited miles warranty in there to make it look good, but knowing full well that most cars will get far less than 50k in those 5 years.

I'm not taking anything away from the product, but why not just guarantee it forever? Most likely something else will blow up the engine anyway.

Spot on!!!

[thom4782]

Originally Posted by piper6909

That's what they claim, but they only guarantee it for 5 years.

This rant about warranties serves little value because is doesn't help one make a call.

A warranty doesn't prevent actual failures. It simply says who will pay should a failure occur. Can anyone cite an example where a manufacturer warrants a part for longer that 5 years which, if the part fails, will destroy an engine that costs $15K to $20K to replace with a fresh unit.

Here's how I see it. Porsche offered either a 3 or 4 year warranty (I don't recall which time period it was). Now your at 100K+ miles on a car that is likely 12+ years old and its time to replace the clutch. You're way beyond any numbers that Porsche would stand behind. Now do you really want to bet that the original IMSB will last another 100K miles/ many years until your next clutch job. I wouldn't take that bet unless I planned to sell the car in a year or two.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by thom4782

A warranty doesn't prevent actual failures. It simply says who will pay should a failure occur. Can anyone cite an example where a manufacturer warrants a part for longer that 5 years which, if the part fails, will destroy an engine that costs $15K to $20K to replace with a fresh unit.

NO warranty covers consequential damages, and at no time have I called for that. There are, however, plenty of lifetime warranties where they would replace the part, if it fails. Lifetime brake warranty, is just one example, but it won't cover your rotor if the pad fails and scores it. No one is asking for that.

All I'm saying is that if you claim your product is the "permanent solution" give it a permanent warranty. If not, you're just all talk and no substance.

Originally Posted by thom4782

Here's how I see it. Porsche offered either a 3 or 4 year warranty (I don't recall which time period it was). Now your at 100K+ miles on a car that is likely 12+ years old and its time to replace the clutch. You're way beyond any numbers that Porsche would stand behind. Now do you really want to bet that the original IMSB will last another 100K miles/ many years until your next clutch job. I wouldn't take that bet unless I planned to sell the car in a year or two.

And I'd agree.

If I had a manual transmission, I'd replace the IMSB when changing the clutch. But I would not spend 1/2 the cost of an engine on it. I'd get an OEM-style bearing for less than $50. If it lasted 100K+ miles, like your example, there's no reason why the new one shouldn't last 100K.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by imhighlander

Is it crazy to just replace the IMS bearing whenever you replace the clutch? Since you're "in there" it may be worth the additional peace of mind. I know it adds another $700 or so to the price of the job but that seems like pretty inexpensive insurance.

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

To answer your question, yes, the IMS Solution is a permanent replacement, it never has to be replaced. This is just one of the reasons this retrofit is popular with Tiptronic owners.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by imhighlander

Is it crazy to just replace the IMS bearing whenever you replace the clutch? Since you're "in there" it may be worth the additional peace of mind. I know it adds another $700 or so to the price of the job but that seems like pretty inexpensive insurance.

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

Yes, it will outlive your engine.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Yes, it will outlive your engine.

You state that with such confidence, and you're most likely correct, but why doesn't the actual manufacturer have the same confidence and offer a lifetime warranty instead of just a 5 year?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

You state that with such confidence, and you're most likely correct, but why doesn't the actual manufacturer have the same confidence and offer a lifetime warranty instead of just a 5 year?

Simple: They don't have to. They have done their homework, patented the design, and have the reputation with more than 25,000 units successfully installed.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Simple: They don't have to. They have done their homework, patented the design, and have the reputation with more than 25,000 units successfully installed.

Actually, from their own website, only "...3,000 IMS Solutions installed since 2008".

https://lnengineering.com/products/ims-bearing-kits-for-porsche-m96-97-engines/ims-solution/ims-solution-for-single-row-ims-my00-05.html

Of course they've sold other products, but we're talking about the "IMS Solution."

Like I said, I'm sure it's a great product and I'm not trying to take anything away from it or from you. I have a great deal of respect for you and your vast knowledge on these cars.

But you seem to have more confidence in it than LN Engineering does.

[tonythetiger]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Actually, from their own website, only "...3,000 IMS Solutions installed since 2008".

30,000...what a difference a digit makes
:+)

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by tonythetiger

30,000...what a difference a digit makes
:+)

I did a triple-take to make sure I didn't read it wrong. It actually says 3000.

Copied and pasted from their site:

WHY BUY AN IMS RETROFIT FROM LN ENGINEERING?


As of 2020, with 35,000 IMS Retrofit and 3000 IMS Solutions installed since 2008, our IMS bearing replacements are the most trusted and used by hundreds of independent mechanics and dealerships worldwide.

[mikefocke]

We live in the world with accounting rules. As soon as LN extends the warranty, the accountants rules will cause them to hold a higher reserve for warranty repairs. Thus not as much profit and/or not as much money to invest in the next product. Eventually the IMS buys will dry up.

Having talked to the inventors, they have high confidence that the probable lifetime is ...

Heck, most of their dual rows are now beyond the 5 year point and I don't see any of the 5 forums I visit daily filled with tales of woe.

If I were making this choice, if I were investing in lots of preventative measures inside the engine, no doubt which I'd specify.

If I were to look hard at my situation and only see the car staying with me for 3-5 years it would be a different choice.

28 other failure points and driver error can total the car for practical purposes.