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Old 08-10-2020, 12:36 PM   #61
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Did a moderator actually do something around here and moved this thread to the appropriate section?!?! OH MY GOD!!!

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Old 08-10-2020, 12:49 PM   #62
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:55 PM   #63
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I don’t really want to go too deeply into the whole Constitution thing, other than to say it basically just sets up how the federal government is organized, and the responsibilities and authority of each branch of that government, as well as setting forth how that government, the feds, work in relation to the governments of the various individual states. The 10th Amendment goes on to declare that those powers that aren’t reserved by the Constitution to the federal government are by default powers that fall to the states to control. So, at least to this point in time, it’s been the states (not the feds) who have come up with the ‘mask mandates’ in their various forms. Could the feds do it on their own, for the nation as a whole? Who knows? I, for one, am not enough of a Constitutional scholar to even venture a guess.

But anyway, I think the courts have been pretty consistent that you have the rights enumerated in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but that those rights can have reasonable limits. (The most consistently quoted: One cannot, based on the 1st Amendment right to free speech, shout “Fire!” in a crowded theater…not that those exist anymore ).

And I think the courts have, by and large, allowed states to be guilty of mild infringement on the individual’s rights under the Constitution where there is a clear and rational basis for such infringement (eg, in this case, the protection of public health) AND where that ‘infringement’ is narrowly drawn so as to minimize, as far as possible, the effect on one’s liberties. Probably requiring masks to be worn in public in the midst of a worldwide pandemic would fall into that category.

As far as your preference that we be “asked” to wear masks, as opposed to it being mandated, I understand the sentiment. I do. However to that I feel the need to add this: For months, Gov DeWine has been recommending folks maintain social distancing and wear masks when indoors, or outdoors where social distancing cannot be achieved. He’s done it til he was blue in the face. It was not until the bad numbers started going back up in Ohio that he finally said (paraphrasing…Gov Mike was much more diplomatic), “Enough! Now it’s mandated!” I don’t have any statistics at my fingertips, but I will offer this admittedly unscientific (though somewhat telling, in my book) observation: A few weeks ago, pre-mandate, I was in Home Depot one afternoon at a time when it was pretty darned crowded. In spite of the Gov’s gentle coaxing, week after week, that people should please wear masks indoors when in public, fully HALF of the people there were without masks. I was back in the same HD this afternoon with, by rough estimate, about the same number of folks in the aisles. Out of curiosity I decided to take note: Out of many dozens of people that I saw, there was this many without a mask on: One. Sometimes “Please” just doesn’t cut it..

Yup, I'm with you on ALL of this. ALL OF IT. 100%. I live in a community which, while perhaps less than other places in the nation, is the hardest-hit in Utah, barring only the Navajo reservation. And still, even with the mandate (let alone before it) the mask usage is incredibly low. I shake my head.
Now I am NOT one of those guys who's going to get on my high-horse and say these people are selfish (or worse), because I understand their mentality, I really do. I disagree with it, but I try to understand them, and I do.

Where your comments stop abruptly, though, are whether or not you think "please" not cutting-it is justification for government over-reach. (If we define over-reach as anything not specifically enumerated in the US Const. or that of the individual states.)

As I mentioned earlier; I don't necessarily know where I stand on some of this. I lean more libertarian than Republican in my own brand of conservatism, yet, when it comes right down to it, I care deeply for my neighbors and my community. Those are sometimes competing values, and additionally I don't have a ton of patience for Jack-A$$es who are purposely rude, or who hurt others "because they can". (No, I am NOT referring to those who don't wear masks. As I said; I understand their reasoning, and I do NOT think they are simply selfish or whatever other moniker others throw at them.)
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:08 PM   #64
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OK I'm not going to debate the Constitution on my favorite car forum. Nor will I call anyone names for choosing to wear or not wear a mask. Politically I think i'm pretty much in the middle. I'm not a gun owner but believe in gun rights. But then again i'm not a woman but believe in her right to choose. I sometimes think Cuomo is a communist, but besides the nursing homes he has done a pretty good job with the virus. NY was in bad bad shape early on. Now with most people on board with wearing the mask, the numbers have come way down. Maybe if we keep wearing them the numbers will stay low. Maybe they won't, time will tell.
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:09 PM   #65
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I think Starter made an important point when he said he'd like to be asked, not required (I'm paraphrasing). I think this is a common theme amongst conservatives regarding many, many issues: You (the gov't) don't have the right to compel me, so just ask us nicely. This is, for instance, how I feel about taxation for social programs, and many other governmental "programs" which may have best-interests at heart, but seek to compel where there is no precedent or constitutional basis for that power being given to gov't.
The government doesn't ask you not to harm others. It mandates it. The government doesn't ask you not to smoke in public. It mandates it.

Since when did conservatives become such snowflakes that they need to be
'asked' to do something? Want us to say, "Pretty-please with sugar on top" too?

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I have a BIGGER problem with the seeming-incongruity behind supporting Protests and protesters (even though they are rarely masked and are NEVER social-distancing) while simultaneously shutting-down religious gatherings, schools, in-person voting and an entire host of other activities which could certainly be done with a modicum of safety that far exceeds what is being exercised during a protest / statue vandalizing session.
While I agree with you that protesting at this time is far from safe, first and foremost I need to check you on the protester's wearing of masks. The vast majority do. Just google images of George Floyd protests and you can see for yourself.

Secondly, how long would you sit by and watch your people repeatedly get cut down? There's a limit people can take. And people have reached that limit when a cop put his god damn knee on an unarmed man's neck for 8-1/2 minutes, staring into the camera while the other cops just stood by and watched until the man died. F Uck yeah I'm going to protest! This can't wait until the Coronavirus is over. He was just killed, the heat of the moment is now. There's emotion, there's anger, there's a need to make a change. Jesus died 2000 years ago, church can wait.

Besides, when are protests ever 'appropriate'? It's always, "now is not the time" or "can't you find another way?" Can't kneel, can't march. Do you have any suggestions? I'll wait to hear them.
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:10 PM   #66
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OK I'm not going to debate the Constitution on my favorite car forum. Nor will I call anyone names for choosing to wear or not wear a mask. Politically I think i'm pretty much in the middle. I'm not a gun owner but believe in gun rights. But then again i'm not a woman but believe in her right to choose. I sometimes think Cuomo is a communist, but besides the nursing homes he has done a pretty good job with the virus. NY was in bad bad shape early on. Now with most people on board with wearing the mask, the numbers have come way down. Maybe if we keep wearing them the numbers will stay low. Maybe they won't, time will tell.

why doesn't this forum have a "LIKE" button?

how 'bout simply "+1"
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Old 08-10-2020, 04:19 PM   #67
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The government doesn't ask you not to harm others. It mandates it. The government doesn't ask you not to smoke in public. It mandates it.

Since when did conservatives become such snowflakes that they need to be
'asked' to do something? Want us to say, "Pretty-please with sugar on top" too?



While I agree with you that protesting at this time is far from safe, first and foremost I need to check you on the protester's wearing of masks. The vast majority do. Just google images of George Floyd protests and you can see for yourself.

Secondly, how long would you sit by and watch your people repeatedly get cut down? There's a limit people can take. And people have reached that limit when a cop put his god damn knee on an unarmed man's neck for 8-1/2 minutes, staring into the camera while the other cops just stood by and watched until the man died. F Uck yeah I'm going to protest! This can't wait until the Coronavirus is over. He was just killed, the heat of the moment is now. There's emotion, there's anger, there's a need to make a change. Jesus died 2000 years ago, church can wait.

Besides, when are protests ever 'appropriate'? It's always, "now is not the time" or "can't you find another way?" Can't kneel, can't march. Do you have any suggestions? I'll wait to hear them.
Should we start a George Floyd thread... because I'm all in. That drug-addled loser was a dead-man walking long before the cops arrived. He's no martyr.He's no saint.

Lets go!!! But give me until at least 4A to launch.
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Old 08-10-2020, 04:27 PM   #68
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Yup, I'm with you on ALL of this. ALL OF IT. 100%. I live in a community which, while perhaps less than other places in the nation, is the hardest-hit in Utah, barring only the Navajo reservation. And still, even with the mandate (let alone before it) the mask usage is incredibly low. I shake my head.
Now I am NOT one of those guys who's going to get on my high-horse and say these people are selfish (or worse), because I understand their mentality, I really do. I disagree with it, but I try to understand them, and I do.

Where your comments stop abruptly, though, are whether or not you think "please" not cutting-it is justification for government over-reach. (If we define over-reach as anything not specifically enumerated in the US Const. or that of the individual states.)
Ahh, there’s the rub: what DOES constitute ‘over-reach’? One person feeling their rights are being trampled on is viewed by another person as the government doing what is supposed to be done to protect the health and welfare of its people. The governor, like the president, has pretty broad authority to issue executive orders when needed to insure that that is what happens. And if it’s not specified to be solely within the strict purview of the federal government (it’s not) and it’s not otherwise ‘unconstitutional’ (which is at least arguably true), then mandating mask usage is not technically over-reach. Ultimately, like always, it’ll eventually come down to what the courts think—which, of course, will depend in large part on WHO appointed the particular judge(s)/justice(s) handing down the decisions.



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As I mentioned earlier; I don't necessarily know where I stand on some of this.
Man do I ever hear you on this. Between covid and this impulsive, divisive, highly unorthodox administration we have in the White House these days, I don’t know if I’m comin’ or goin’ sometimes. (When he won the election, I was more than willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I took my hat off to the man—he pulled off a major, largely unexpected victory. There’s still things he asserts that I agree with (occasionally). But geeeeez, the man’s a bull in a China shop. Over time he’s just committed way too many major blunders and stupid indiscretions and unforgivable gaffes. And the worst of it? The very worst, in my mind? He’s created a civil war mentality, developed and nurtured animosities between people that hadn’t existed before, turned folks that may previously have had minor disagreements into bitter enemies. That just doesn’t sit well with me.)

All in all, I don’t think that we (those of us still left in this discussion) are ALL that far apart on most of this stuff. Subtle differences in opinions can blossom into major disputes when one’s reasoning is publically called into question. It’s like one too many inside fastballs: usually they get shrugged off with a minor grumble, but sometimes they end up with pitcher/batter/catcher rolling in the dirt. I think we can probably succeed in staying out of the dirt.
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Old 08-10-2020, 04:49 PM   #69
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The government doesn't ask you not to harm others. It mandates it. The government doesn't ask you not to smoke in public. It mandates it.

Since when did conservatives become such snowflakes that they need to be
'asked' to do something? Want us to say, "Pretty-please with sugar on top" too?



While I agree with you that protesting at this time is far from safe, first and foremost I need to check you on the protester's wearing of masks. The vast majority do. Just google images of George Floyd protests and you can see for yourself.

Secondly, how long would you sit by and watch your people repeatedly get cut down? There's a limit people can take. And people have reached that limit when a cop put his god damn knee on an unarmed man's neck for 8-1/2 minutes, staring into the camera while the other cops just stood by and watched until the man died. F Uck yeah I'm going to protest! This can't wait until the Coronavirus is over. He was just killed, the heat of the moment is now. There's emotion, there's anger, there's a need to make a change. Jesus died 2000 years ago, church can wait.

Besides, when are protests ever 'appropriate'? It's always, "now is not the time" or "can't you find another way?" Can't kneel, can't march. Do you have any suggestions? I'll wait to hear them.
Dood..... when you're done putting words in my mouth, come join me in the street where I'm supporting the protests over the too-frequent brutal treatment of some at the hands of the police.

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Old 08-10-2020, 04:55 PM   #70
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Should we start a George Floyd thread... because I'm all in. That drug-addled loser was a dead-man walking long before the cops arrived. He's no martyr.He's no saint.

Lets go!!! But give me until at least 4A to launch.
Yeah, 'cause you're a saint and a winner! Maybe he was a loser because he was on drugs. What's your excuse?
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Old 08-10-2020, 04:56 PM   #71
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Dood..... when you're done putting words in my mouth, come join me in the street where I'm supporting the protests over the too-frequent brutal treatment of some at the hands of the police.

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Sorry, How did I put words in your mouth? And cheers for supporting the protests!
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:08 PM   #72
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Sorry, How did I put words in your mouth? And cheers for supporting the protests!
All that intimation you did that I was suggesting the protests shouldn't be happening. You couldn't bear to hear the incongruity i pointed out, so you tossed in a straw man to deflect to.

How about address the real point I made? Why is one okay and the other is not?

Oh, and yes, by the way, leave your mask at home for the protest. The ONLY masks being worn at these are the people who are afraid they'll be recognized causing property damage when the video gets played back at 11.

Remember the '60s, when people were ready to go to jail for their cause?

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Old 08-10-2020, 05:25 PM   #73
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,..I will agree this Virus is unique, But you cant wear a mask forever to protect yourself from the winds of a virus mask may slow it down but it wont stop it,Heat was suppose to kill it,I live in Tucson, Az way past 100 Deg's A day for weeks and the numbers went up,I don't trust the numbers, or the way all this Virus protection has been conducted, I.E. Symptoms : headache,muscle soreness, coughing, temperature, fatigue, stiffness, I get all of that with the common Flu, I just don't trust the Government to tell me what's best when they don't even know,its that simple for me,The Obama/Biden ticket,sure didn't create a very quick recovery from the housing bubble crash,I think they or Obama seen that as a way to Fundamentally change America as he so elegantly stated ( the way he wants it's).Once he benefitted from America's success ,.Law school,then to government,.He didn't want the same for ALL American's or he would have done what Trump has done,..open up the economy and cut taxes, and the regulations that only hurt America,..Trump is no secret Genius,.any politician that wants a successful country would do exactly what he did,.Iam sure Bernie and Cortez will be wonderful for PA,.If you can drive your car on seaweed..or Sunlight have fun
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:47 PM   #74
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All that intimation you did that I was suggesting the protests shouldn't be happening.
Sorry, I thought you did suggest exactly that. I misread your intent. My apologies.

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You couldn't bear to hear the incongruity i pointed out, so you tossed in a straw man to deflect to.

How about address the real point I made? Why is one okay and the other is not?
I thought I did: This can't wait until the Coronavirus is over. He was just killed, the heat of the moment is now. There's emotion, there's anger, there's a need to make a change. Jesus died 2000 years ago, church can wait.
But I guess I wasn't clear: While I agreed with you that it's not safe, a tipping point was reached when the last straw was broken. At that point, protesting to demand change to stop repeated killings supersedes social distancing mandates. Even though the vast majority of us used masks. Church? Does holding mass really have the same urgency?

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Oh, and yes, by the way, leave your mask at home for the protest. The ONLY masks being worn at these are the people who are afraid they'll be recognized causing property damage when the video gets played back at 11.

Remember the '60s, when people were ready to go to jail for their cause?

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You mean like the Boogaloo Boys?

Under normal circumstances, I didn't have any masks to wear at protests. I'm not ashamed to be identified, as I nor the groups I've protested with didn't damage any property. But I've worn mine under Covid.
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:50 PM   #75
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George Floyd,..this is most certainly a shameful thing on those police officer's( no matter who's neck it was),That justice should be between Mr.Floyd's family and that Police department, period..It's not just cause to ruin other's livelihood, and property, It just goes to show how people are being raised and educated to hate everything in this country because they weren't handed success or taught respect for other's,.. it's said, You get out of life what you put into it ,Protesting is a way to be heard,.to change thing's, you actually need to make an effort in the proper direction,..8 yrs of Obama/Biden why wasn't there change, they complain the most !! and do nothing because they like to create chaos, How's that for another Political statement !

Soap box now folded up and put away ! ( My apologies to anyone I may have offended )
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:55 PM   #76
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,..I will agree this Virus is unique, But you cant wear a mask forever to protect yourself from the winds of a virus mask may slow it down but it wont stop it,Heat was suppose to kill it,
Ahhh.. Only Rump told you that heat will kill it. Not the scientists. "In a few days it'll go away," he said. "When it gets warm it'll magically disappear." Remember that?

We only have to wear masks until a vaccine is discovered. Not forever.

And yes, the mask will slow it down. That's mostly the point! Slowing it down means the hospitals won't get inundated with patients all at once. Geesh, man! We've already gone over this. Why is it so difficult for some people to get it!?
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:58 PM   #77
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George Floyd,..this is most certainly a shameful thing on those police officer's( no matter who's neck it was),That justice should be between Mr.Floyd's family and that Police department, period..It's not just cause to ruin other's livelihood, and property, It just goes to show how people are being raised and educated to hate everything in this country because they weren't handed success or taught respect for other's,.. it's said, You get out of life what you put into it ,Protesting is a way to be heard,.to change thing's, you actually need to make an effort in the proper direction,..8 yrs of Obama/Biden why wasn't there change, they complain the most !! and do nothing because they like to create chaos, How's that for another Political statement !

Soap box now folded up and put away ! ( My apologies to anyone I may have offended )
What a joke!
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Old 08-10-2020, 06:06 PM   #78
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Political activism, 'community organizers', and most of the current 'journalists' are all about creating outrage and division. Strangely that's also what our geo-political adversaries want to do. Much of the 'Everybody must wear a mask' stuff that I saw on Facebook looked like it was actually designed to piss off a portion of the population.
Want to stick it to the man? Be kind, dont look for outrage, and enjoy driving you Porsche.

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Old 08-10-2020, 06:10 PM   #79
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Old 08-10-2020, 06:19 PM   #80
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Whats the funny part..

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