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Old 08-09-2020, 01:53 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by maytag View Post
I don't know why I engage in these topics. Inevitably, we end up in the same place.

Lobbing verbal, hyperbole "grenades" at each other will never change someone's mind. It's like we're hoping somebody is keeping score of all the "internet-forum-wins", and that the winner will then be awarded an ACTUAL win in global politics.

Hopefully we FINALLY get to the point in these engagements where we get to the roots (as opposed to the leaves) and then we go for the jugular.

In this case, that "root" is what does it mean to be free, and where does that freedom end? I always love it when somebody jumps on and says that their opinion is more valid (or they simply state it as if it's fact) because their own military service is somehow more meaningful or important, or their sacrifice more valuable than any others (especially those others who disagree with them).

And then piper jumps in and does his best jim-carey-of-the-internet impersonation, killing us all with his sheer POST COUNT.

Then there's me: dive- bombing from 40k' to spread a little kumbaya..... until I see something that pisses me off personally and I get into the weeds as bad as any, and worse than some.

I need to just avoid these threads altogether. I'd rather be friends with all y'all, regardless of differences great or small.

So to remove any need for me to come back here, I'll just do this now:

-I'm wrong about everything.
-Cunnigula is right about freedom and where it ends.
-TSR should be a moderator because he shows common sense and restraint.
-starter is exempt from wearing a mask 'cuz he's ornery.
-piper wins the internet by sheer "China- invades- the Vatican" post ratios.

If i missed anyone, it's cuz you've been far too conservative in voicing your opinion (in other words, in at least this thread: you're forgettable)


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Please don’t be little veterans, I did not add that to try to add weight to my opinion. I am proud to have spent my life serving in the military.

I have no problem with anyones opinion, but the choice to wear a mask or not affects other people to the point that if you infect someone and kill them because you chose not to wear a mask to keep germs to yourself and they die how would you feel? The issue with this virus it affects everyone differently.

I will get down off the soap box now!

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Old 08-09-2020, 04:47 PM   #42
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Don't forget That the virus can now affect you thru your eye's according to Dr. Fauci,
So..Now What ,.soon it will be thru your ears,.I wear a mask as required by my employer and if a store require's it and I WANT to go to that store then I do,..I don't endanger anyone,.My comment is a make your own choice statement,.I think if ( God forbid) Joe Biden wins then the virus will be over,.However they could then stay on course to Socialism because people do as they are told,I believe a politician said the problem with democracy is everybody has a voice.
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Old 08-09-2020, 04:57 PM   #43
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Please don’t be little veterans, I did not add that to try to add weight to my opinion. I am proud to have spent my life serving in the military.



I have no problem with anyones opinion, but the choice to wear a mask or not affects other people to the point that if you infect someone and kill them because you chose not to wear a mask to keep germs to yourself and they die how would you feel? The issue with this virus it affects everyone differently.



I will get down off the soap box now!
I sent this as a pm, but decided I'd better stick it here.

That you think my comment was belittling to veterans proves you're doing EXACTLY what I was suggesting you were doing: assuming your military service is more valuable than others'.

Any idea how many veterans we've got on this forum? Me either, but I know it's more than just you and me, and I know they / we all have different opinions about things. Your military service and sacrifice is appreciated.... as is that of the others, who disagree with you on this topic.

Read my comment again. ;-)

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Old 08-09-2020, 06:17 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by maytag View Post
I don't know why I engage in these topics. Inevitably, we end up in the same place.

Lobbing verbal, hyperbole "grenades" at each other will never change someone's mind. It's like we're hoping somebody is keeping score of all the "internet-forum-wins", and that the winner will then be awarded an ACTUAL win in global politics.

Hopefully we FINALLY get to the point in these engagements where we get to the roots (as opposed to the leaves) and then we go for the jugular.

In this case, that "root" is what does it mean to be free, and where does that freedom end? I always love it when somebody jumps on and says that their opinion is more valid (or they simply state it as if it's fact) because their own military service is somehow more meaningful or important, or their sacrifice more valuable than any others (especially those others who disagree with them).

And then piper jumps in and does his best jim-carey-of-the-internet impersonation, killing us all with his sheer POST COUNT.

Then there's me: dive- bombing from 40k' to spread a little kumbaya..... until I see something that pisses me off personally and I get into the weeds as bad as any, and worse than some.

I need to just avoid these threads altogether. I'd rather be friends with all y'all, regardless of differences great or small.

So to remove any need for me to come back here, I'll just do this now:

-I'm wrong about everything.
-Cunnigula is right about freedom and where it ends.
-TSR should be a moderator because he shows common sense and restraint.
-starter is exempt from wearing a mask 'cuz he's ornery.
-piper wins the internet by sheer "China- invades- the Vatican" post ratios.

If i missed anyone, it's cuz you've been far too conservative in voicing your opinion (in other words, in at least this thread: you're forgettable)


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Ha ha, Maytag! I wish I was closer to Utah so I could buy you a beverage of your choice! Jim Carey? I love it! Thank you, I'll take it as a complement. Yes, I posted a lot, but it's to respond to each individual comment. I joined roughly 1.5 years ago, you joined 2.5 years ago yet I have about 1/2 the total posts you do. So I'm actually lagging behind your post rate! And I noticed, by the way, you didn't dispute my reply to you. No, you're not wrong about everything. Just 90, maybe 95% tops! J/K! Seriously, I have great respect for you, bud. Please don't stop trying to spread kumbaya!

Now to condense my posts, I'll do a 2-fer one and reply to flmont.

But first let it be known that I was not the one who started the political side of this discussion.

flmont. First, where have you been? Dr. Fauci has ALWAYS said you can get it through your eyes. That is by having contaminated hands and touching your eyes, in addition to nose and mouth. If someone's spittle or vapor enters your eyes, you can also contract the disease. That's all the more reason that masks are for the protection of others, not yourself. So I wear a mask to protect YOU, and you wear a mask to protect ME. See how it works?

Second, you said 'God forbid' Biden gets elected and went on some rant about socialism. We've had an Obama/Biden administration for 8 years and they pulled us out of the jaws of a 2nd great depression. I doubt you can claim with a straight face that we fell into the depths of socialism then. But even if your worst suspicion is true that Biden is somehow a closet socialist, I'd rather have socialism than the narcissistic fascist wannabe authoritarian jackass we have now. And if you want, I can go point by point to prove every adjective I used to describe him is true. But you already know that. You're not dumb.
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:30 PM   #45
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The USA is 4% of the world's population. The USA's death rate represents +/- 20% of the ROW's deaths. Even if that number is over stated by 50%, we still have too high of a mortality rate comparatively. We (USA) are clearly doing something wrong.

I have a co-worker who has been in/out of the hospital twice since early March. Another got sick and took it home to his wife, kid's and in-laws. Fortunately, nobody I know has died from this yet. Wearing an N95 mask is required for me at work. I also wear one in public when I'm not at work. It's simple, easy and I don't want to be the cause of somebody else's illness. The notion that it impinges on 'my rights' is nonsensical and selfish. A lot of us have elderly parents (mom is 83) I would gladly wear a mask to protect her and or your parents.

I hear people complaining about the 'sacrifices' they are being forced to make. Ask somebody who lived thru WWII about sacrifices, i.e. 'ration coupons/stamps', etc. Imagine only being allowed to buy one set of tires for your car each year?

I don't care what flavor Kool-aid you drink, you can still wear a mask and vote for Donald.
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Old 08-09-2020, 11:11 PM   #46
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I sent this as a pm, but decided I'd better stick it here.

That you think my comment was belittling to veterans proves you're doing EXACTLY what I was suggesting you were doing: assuming your military service is more valuable than others'.

Any idea how many veterans we've got on this forum? Me either, but I know it's more than just you and me, and I know they / we all have different opinions about things. Your military service and sacrifice is appreciated.... as is that of the others, who disagree with you on this topic.

Read my comment again. ;-)

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I replied via pm but Public notice I wasn’t saying my Service has more importance than anyone else just background on my self.

I am not posting my opinion about mask it’s a proven fact that wearing a mask helps contain the spread of the virus.
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Old 08-10-2020, 02:31 AM   #47
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The USA is 4% of the world's population. The USA's death rate represents +/- 20% of the ROW's deaths. Even if that number is over stated by 50%, we still have too high of a mortality rate comparatively. We (USA) are clearly doing something wrong.

I have a co-worker who has been in/out of the hospital twice since early March. Another got sick and took it home to his wife, kid's and in-laws. Fortunately, nobody I know has died from this yet. Wearing an N95 mask is required for me at work. I also wear one in public when I'm not at work. It's simple, easy and I don't want to be the cause of somebody else's illness. The notion that it impinges on 'my rights' is nonsensical and selfish. A lot of us have elderly parents (mom is 83) I would gladly wear a mask to protect her and or your parents.

I hear people complaining about the 'sacrifices' they are being forced to make. Ask somebody who lived thru WWII about sacrifices, i.e. 'ration coupons/stamps', etc. Imagine only being allowed to buy one set of tires for your car each year?

I don't care what flavor Kool-aid you drink, you can still wear a mask and vote for Donald.

Fat population with high rate of co-morbidities.........
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Old 08-10-2020, 03:38 AM   #48
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Don't get me wrong, I had no issue with what you wrote. I just wanted to make sure you were quoted correctly!
LOL No problem. I didn't take it offensively and wasn't trying to be either.
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:14 AM   #49
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I am not posting my opinion about mask it’s a proven fact that wearing a mask helps contain the spread of the virus.
With all due rspect for your service to our country... you're not a mask expert.

deadliest virus.jpg
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:16 AM   #50
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My signature actually refers to the 1935 novel by Sinclair Lewis.
Wiki'd that.

Now... that's heavy. I haven't read a novel in decades. Decades. That's one title that might cause me to break that record. Thanks!!
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:21 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by maytag View Post
I don't know why I engage in these topics. Inevitably, we end up in the same place.

Lobbing verbal, hyperbole "grenades" at each other will never change someone's mind. It's like we're hoping somebody is keeping score of all the "internet-forum-wins", and that the winner will then be awarded an ACTUAL win in global politics.

Hopefully we FINALLY get to the point in these engagements where we get to the roots (as opposed to the leaves) and then we go for the jugular.

In this case, that "root" is what does it mean to be free, and where does that freedom end? I always love it when somebody jumps on and says that their opinion is more valid (or they simply state it as if it's fact) because their own military service is somehow more meaningful or important, or their sacrifice more valuable than any others (especially those others who disagree with them).

And then piper jumps in and does his best jim-carey-of-the-internet impersonation, killing us all with his sheer POST COUNT.

Then there's me: dive- bombing from 40k' to spread a little kumbaya..... until I see something that pisses me off personally and I get into the weeds as bad as any, and worse than some.

I need to just avoid these threads altogether. I'd rather be friends with all y'all, regardless of differences great or small.

So to remove any need for me to come back here, I'll just do this now:

-I'm wrong about everything.
-Cunnigula is right about freedom and where it ends.
-TSR should be a moderator because he shows common sense and restraint.
-starter is exempt from wearing a mask 'cuz he's ornery.
-piper wins the internet by sheer "China- invades- the Vatican" post ratios.

If i missed anyone, it's cuz you've been far too conservative in voicing your opinion (in other words, in at least this thread: you're forgettable)


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What a guy!!
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:43 AM   #52
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With all due rspect for your service to our country... you're not a mask expert.
With all due respect, he doesn't need to be and most of us aren't. But he and most of us do LISTEN to the ACTUAL experts.
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:55 AM   #53
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With all due rspect for your service to our country... you're not a mask expert.

Attachment 22577
Maybe I am a mask expert by now I have read OSHA standards concerning masks and the CDC standards and slept at a Holiday Inn Express! lol

Seriously I never claimed to be a mask expert. However, the fact that the spread of the virus is reduced when measures such as social distancing, hand washing, and Wearing Face Coverings has been published for non-expert consumption.


I watched the news here showing bodies of dead so numerous they had to open refrigerated storage in the Ice Arenas and other large cold storage facilities to hold the bodies. That was because the morgs were saturated. So I do feel any measure that may help keep this virus slowed down is a good thing.
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Old 08-10-2020, 06:43 AM   #54
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With all due rspect for your service to our country... you're not a mask expert.

Attachment 22577
Apparently (with all due respect) neither are you. First off, don’t know where you got that graphic with the wonderful display of various types of masks, but it is clearly inaccurate. Smallpox and HIV have killed many, many millions of people; I don’t think covid’s hit a million yet. The thing that makes covid such a problem (in addition to its mortality) is how incredibly contagious it is. The stuff spreads like wildfire.

Secondly, not sure what your point is with that image? That the surgical type masks that people are generally wearing these days (those who choose to wear them, that is) are not up to the task? Well, granting that we still have a ways to go in our knowledge on this particular virus, the consensus among medical people, those who have a significantly better understanding of these things than most of us will ever hope to, is that they are in fact effective and helpful.

I’ve got an old friend, have known since the ‘70s, medical doctor, infectious disease guy. A Professor Emeritus (Medicine: Infectious Disease and International Health), he has spent 40 years as a medical scholar, investigator and instructor, teaching infectious disease, medicine and neurosurgery at University of Virginia. The guy’s contributed to hundreds of peer-reviewed articles, edited over a dozen books and has served on editorial boards of several medical journals. The man’s long since established his credentials in my book, and he is a colleague/friend of Dr Fauci, and a follower of his recommendations with regard to fighting this pandemic. When he’s out and about? He wears a mask. That’s all the persuasion I need.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:16 AM   #55
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Some people have to be told because, quite frankly, they are too stupid to make the right decision. Common sense it seems is not so common. Freedom is the right to choose but making an obviously wrong choice, even after being told by experts that you are making a mistake, is a sign of ignorance and obstinance and infringes everyone’s freedom.
+1 on this!

I am in Canada- Canadians tend to be more compliant and believe that the government is actually looking out for their safety and best interest instead of infringing on their rights. For example; most Canadians are thankful of our tough gun laws which mean that we don't actually have to carry a weapon to protect ourselves. We, for the most part, have also been very accepting of COVID restrictions and the need to wear a mask.
I realize that there are many factors regarding spread and death rate of COVID but I am proud of how well Canada has handled the pandemic. We have not politicized COVID, we have excellent healthcare available to everyone at no cost and most people are happy to wear a mask. As a result our death rate (as of August 10) is .13 per million whereas the US is tracking 1.55 deaths per million.
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:48 AM   #56
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If people are not going to wear a mask, then they probably won't get the vaccine either. They don't seem to think that the virus is a real threat, it's just a made up thing to further a political agenda. Or they will say the Bill Gates is just trying to implant a tracking chip in them. Of course unless you live in the woods somewhere you are being tracked almost constantly anyway. Let's see Cell phone, Credit/debit card use, EZpass, license plate readers, internet ip, cameras in nearly every place of business the list goes on and on. But it's my right not to wear a mask blah blah blah. Maybe there is something about the right not to wear a mask during a pandemic in the constitution, but I must of missed it.
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:50 AM   #57
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Maybe there is something about the right not to wear a mask during a pandemic in the constitution, but I must of missed it.
Have you READ the constitution of the United States? If you had, then you would understand that the document enumerates those specific areas where government CAN restrict freedoms. So, the fact that facemasks are not mentioned in the constitution actually feeds the argument against the gov't being allowed to mandate them. (So I'd probably quit bringing that point up, if I wanted to encourage the naysayers to wear facemasks)

I think Starter made an important point when he said he'd like to be asked, not required (I'm paraphrasing). I think this is a common theme amongst conservatives regarding many, many issues: You (the gov't) don't have the right to compel me, so just ask us nicely. This is, for instance, how I feel about taxation for social programs, and many other governmental "programs" which may have best-interests at heart, but seek to compel where there is no precedent or constitutional basis for that power being given to gov't.

Having said that, While I bristle at the unconstitutionality of all that's being foisted upon us right now, I try not to let the leaves block the view of the forest. I still give to charity, and I still wear a facemask when and where I'm asked to do so.
I have a BIGGER problem with the seeming-incongruity behind supporting Protests and protesters (even though they are rarely masked and are NEVER social-distancing) while simultaneously shutting-down religious gatherings, schools, in-person voting and an entire host of other activities which could certainly be done with a modicum of safety that far exceeds what is being exercised during a protest / statue vandalizing session.

I don't make decisions based on the "slippery-slope" idea, but you must admit that there is merit to it. You see, while Covid is certainly real and scary, it HAS most-certainly been politicized, and is being used to influence behavior. To what end? Well, I have my own opinions about that; What are YOURS?
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:52 AM   #58
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Canadians tend to be more compliant and believe that the government is actually looking out for their safety and best interest instead of infringing on their rights. For example; most Canadians are thankful of our tough gun laws which mean that we don't actually have to carry a weapon to protect ourselves. .
Pfffffffffft. Who is feeding you that line of BS? Your leader?

"The downward trend stopped in 2013 and, since then, it has gone up 42%. Between 2013 and 2017, 16 of Canada's Census metropolitan areas saw increases in their rate of firearm-related violent crime, including 7 of the 10 largest. ... Each year since 2009, about six in ten firearm-related violent crimes involved handguns."

Enough with the b ull****************. Criminals don't care about laws. "Criminal" The word was coined for a reason.

Maybe this needs a new thread.
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Old 08-10-2020, 11:07 AM   #59
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Pfffffffffft. Who is feeding you that line of BS? Your leader?

"The downward trend stopped in 2013 and, since then, it has gone up 42%. Between 2013 and 2017, 16 of Canada's Census metropolitan areas saw increases in their rate of firearm-related violent crime, including 7 of the 10 largest. ... Each year since 2009, about six in ten firearm-related violent crimes involved handguns."
Trend maybe up- but Canada still as approximately 1/6 of firearm related deaths per capita as US. I know very few people who own guns, and those who do, have shotguns and rifles for hunting only- not for personal protection. The bad guys will always have guns, but they are still few and far enough between that the good guys don't need to carry.
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:28 PM   #60
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Have you READ the constitution of the United States? If you had, then you would understand that the document enumerates those specific areas where government CAN restrict freedoms. So, the fact that facemasks are not mentioned in the constitution actually feeds the argument against the gov't being allowed to mandate them. (So I'd probably quit bringing that point up, if I wanted to encourage the naysayers to wear facemasks)

I think Starter made an important point when he said he'd like to be asked, not required (I'm paraphrasing). I think this is a common theme amongst conservatives regarding many, many issues: You (the gov't) don't have the right to compel me, so just ask us nicely. This is, for instance, how I feel about taxation for social programs, and many other governmental "programs" which may have best-interests at heart, but seek to compel where there is no precedent or constitutional basis for that power being given to gov't.

Having said that, While I bristle at the unconstitutionality of all that's being foisted upon us right now, I try not to let the leaves block the view of the forest. I still give to charity, and I still wear a facemask when and where I'm asked to do so.
I have a BIGGER problem with the seeming-incongruity behind supporting Protests and protesters (even though they are rarely masked and are NEVER social-distancing) while simultaneously shutting-down religious gatherings, schools, in-person voting and an entire host of other activities which could certainly be done with a modicum of safety that far exceeds what is being exercised during a protest / statue vandalizing session.

I don't make decisions based on the "slippery-slope" idea, but you must admit that there is merit to it. You see, while Covid is certainly real and scary, it HAS most-certainly been politicized, and is being used to influence behavior. To what end? Well, I have my own opinions about that; What are YOURS?
I don’t really want to go too deeply into the whole Constitution thing, other than to say it basically just sets up how the federal government is organized, and the responsibilities and authority of each branch of that government, as well as setting forth how that government, the feds, work in relation to the governments of the various individual states. The 10th Amendment goes on to declare that those powers that aren’t reserved by the Constitution to the federal government are by default powers that fall to the states to control. So, at least to this point in time, it’s been the states (not the feds) who have come up with the ‘mask mandates’ in their various forms. Could the feds do it on their own, for the nation as a whole? Who knows? I, for one, am not enough of a Constitutional scholar to even venture a guess.

But anyway, I think the courts have been pretty consistent that you have the rights enumerated in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but that those rights can have reasonable limits. (The most consistently quoted: One cannot, based on the 1st Amendment right to free speech, shout “Fire!” in a crowded theater…not that those exist anymore ).

And I think the courts have, by and large, allowed states to be guilty of mild infringement on the individual’s rights under the Constitution where there is a clear and rational basis for such infringement (eg, in this case, the protection of public health) AND where that ‘infringement’ is narrowly drawn so as to minimize, as far as possible, the effect on one’s liberties. Probably requiring masks to be worn in public in the midst of a worldwide pandemic would fall into that category.

As far as your preference that we be “asked” to wear masks, as opposed to it being mandated, I understand the sentiment. I do. However to that I feel the need to add this: For months, Gov DeWine has been recommending folks maintain social distancing and wear masks when indoors, or outdoors where social distancing cannot be achieved. He’s done it til he was blue in the face. It was not until the bad numbers started going back up in Ohio that he finally said (paraphrasing…Gov Mike was much more diplomatic), “Enough! Now it’s mandated!” I don’t have any statistics at my fingertips, but I will offer this admittedly unscientific (though somewhat telling, in my book) observation: A few weeks ago, pre-mandate, I was in Home Depot one afternoon at a time when it was pretty darned crowded. In spite of the Gov’s gentle coaxing, week after week, that people should please wear masks indoors when in public, fully HALF of the people there were without masks. I was back in the same HD this afternoon with, by rough estimate, about the same number of folks in the aisles. Out of curiosity I decided to take note: Out of many dozens of people that I saw, there was this many without a mask on: One. Sometimes “Please” just doesn’t cut it..

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