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Old 04-19-2012, 07:20 AM   #1
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Racing Alignment on stock suspension

Guys,

Is it worth adjusting the stock suspension for racing? I've been told there is not a lot that can be done and it's not worth spending the money. The only addition I have is gembella lowering springs. Everything else is stock.


I have hoosier R6 tires and I'm under the impression that they're not good with stock camber.

Please chime in.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:09 AM   #2
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What are your alignment settings now?

You will be camber challenged with the stock suspension and R6s, but to say there not good is a stretch. By running non optimal camber you will just wear them out faster and you will not have the maximum grip they a capable of.

Are you running the PCA HPDE at Miller May 5th?
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:14 AM   #3
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What are your alignment settings now?

You will be camber challenged with the stock suspension and R6s, but to say there not good is a stretch. By running non optimal camber you will just wear them out faster and you will not have the maximum grip they a capable of.

Are you running the PCA HPDE at Miller May 5th?
I have the sheet in my car, it's not with me now. From what I remember my alignment was done for best tire wear and due to my lowering springs they couldn't have it exactly 0. Again, should I have Dave Strong Porsche realign my car more race oriented. Is it worth paying 169?

Yes, I plan on going to the PCA HPDE. My appointment today is for alignment and a tech inspection.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:12 AM   #4
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I haven't done it yet but I am going to change the alignment for the track. I'm going to go with as much negative camber as the car will allow in the front, with the toe set at zero. In the back, I'm going to go with 1/2 degree less camber than the front, and the toe set at 1/16. Hopefully this will dial out some of the understeer that is engineered into these cars and help it turn quicker.


Also, the recommended tire pressure of 29/36 induces lots of understeer. Just by running the same pressures all around, or a slightly lower rear pressure than the front also helps with the understeer.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by san rensho View Post
I haven't done it yet but I am going to change the alignment for the track. I'm going to go with as much negative camber as the car will allow in the front, with the toe set at zero. In the back, I'm going to go with 1/2 degree less camber than the front, and the toe set at 1/16. Hopefully this will dial out some of the understeer that is engineered into these cars and help it turn quicker.


Also, the recommended tire pressure of 29/36 induces lots of understeer. Just by running the same pressures all around, or a slightly lower rear pressure than the front also helps with the understeer.
Thanks. I'm going to suggest that to the dealer when I go in today.

I'm running 275 35 18s in the rear and 245 35 18s in the front.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:25 PM   #6
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Yes, its definitely worth doing a track alignment even with the stock suspension. Here is the series of events that I have followed over the past 16 months (new is in bold). As Topless said, its not a slippery slope, its a cliff!

1. Stock suspension, standard stock alignment, street tires. Fine for beginning track driver. As I got better/faster, I had extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires.

2. Stock suspension, track alignment yielding max -1.2 deg camber in front, street tires. Much improved handling and improved grip. But again as I got better/faster, I had extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires.

3. Stock suspension, track alignment yielding -1.2 deg camber in front, Nitto NT-01 race tires. Much improved grip due to the stickier tires. but the camber alignment limit casued premature/extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires. Forum members (noteably Topless and Brad) predicted this would happen and they were correct.

4. Stock suspension, adustable GT-3 lower control arms, track alignment yielding -2.25 deg camber in front, Nitto NT-01 race tires. Started out with even tire wear. but as I got faster, I still have too much wear on the outside 1/3 of front and rear tires.

Next month....

5. PSS9 upgrade with adjustable sway bars, adustable GT-3 lower control arms, track alignment yielding -2.5 to -3.0 deg camber in front, Toyo RA-1 race tires. This is the Spec Box setup and I expect (hope for) better handling, more grip, and fairly even tire wear.

To the OP: sounds like you're about where I was around Step 3 so the track alignment will definitely improve things. Then prepare yourself for Step 4 or Step 5...
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Last edited by thstone; 04-19-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:46 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by thstone View Post
Yes, its definitely worth doing a track alignment even with the stock suspension. Here is the series of events that I have followed over the past 16 months (new is in bold). As Topless said, its not a slippery slope, its a cliff!

1. Stock suspension, standard stock alignment, street tires. Fine for beginning track driver. As I got better/faster, I had extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires.

2. Stock suspension, track alignment yielding max -1.2 deg camber in front, street tires. Much improved handling and improved grip. But again as I got better/faster, I had extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires.

3. Stock suspension, track alignment yielding -1.2 deg camber in front, Nitto NT-01 race tires. Much improved grip due to the stickier tires. but the camber alignment limit casued premature/extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires. Forum members (noteably Topless and Brad) predicted this would happen and they were correct.

4. Stock suspension, adustable GT-3 lower control arms, track alignment yielding -2.25 deg camber in front, Nitto NT-01 race tires. Started out with even tire wear. but as I got faster, I still have too much wear on the outside 1/3 of front and rear tires.

Next month....

5. PSS9 upgrade with adjustable sway bars, adustable GT-3 lower control arms, track alignment yielding -2.5 to -3.0 deg camber in front, Toyo RA-1 race tires. This is the Spec Box setup and I expect (hope for) better handling, more grip, and fairly even tire wear.

To the OP: sounds like you're about where I was around Step 3 so the track alignment will definitely improve things. Then prepare yourself for Step 4 or Step 5...
Ah, the slippery slope. You are definitely hitting the track pipe hard. Good for you.
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thstone View Post
Yes, its definitely worth doing a track alignment even with the stock suspension. Here is the series of events that I have followed over the past 16 months (new is in bold). As Topless said, its not a slippery slope, its a cliff!

1. Stock suspension, standard stock alignment, street tires. Fine for beginning track driver. As I got better/faster, I had extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires.

2. Stock suspension, track alignment yielding max -1.2 deg camber in front, street tires. Much improved handling and improved grip. But again as I got better/faster, I had extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires.

3. Stock suspension, track alignment yielding -1.2 deg camber in front, Nitto NT-01 race tires. Much improved grip due to the stickier tires. but the camber alignment limit casued premature/extreme wear on the outside 1/3 of front tires. Forum members (noteably Topless and Brad) predicted this would happen and they were correct.

4. Stock suspension, adustable GT-3 lower control arms, track alignment yielding -2.25 deg camber in front, Nitto NT-01 race tires. Started out with even tire wear. but as I got faster, I still have too much wear on the outside 1/3 of front and rear tires.

Next month....

5. PSS9 upgrade with adjustable sway bars, adustable GT-3 lower control arms, track alignment yielding -2.5 to -3.0 deg camber in front, Toyo RA-1 race tires. This is the Spec Box setup and I expect (hope for) better handling, more grip, and fairly even tire wear.

To the OP: sounds like you're about where I was around Step 3 so the track alignment will definitely improve things. Then prepare yourself for Step 4 or Step 5...
This is too good! I really appreciate the info.

Adjusting the stock suspension -as you clearly know- was well worth it. The car felt completely different driving home from the dealership. It has a lot more bite in the corners.

Final camber for the LF was -1.4 and RF -1.4.
Rears came in at LR at -2.4 and RR -2.6.

Who knows maybe the GT3 control arms are next.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:24 PM   #9
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This is too good! I really appreciate the info.

Adjusting the stock suspension -as you clearly know- was well worth it. The car felt completely different driving home from the dealership. It has a lot more bite in the corners.

Final camber for the LF was -1.4 and RF -1.4.
Rears came in at LR at -2.4 and RR -2.6.

Who knows maybe the GT3 control arms are next.
Why are you running so much negative camber in the rear? Unless I am mistaken, to dial out understeer, the idea is to get the rear camber less than the front.
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1989 (?) Alfa Romeo Milano
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:28 PM   #10
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This is too good! I really appreciate the info.

Adjusting the stock suspension -as you clearly know- was well worth it. The car felt completely different driving home from the dealership. It has a lot more bite in the corners.

Final camber for the LF was -1.4 and RF -1.4.
Rears came in at LR at -2.4 and RR -2.6.

Who knows maybe the GT3 control arms are next.
You were able to get -1.4 out of the stock suspension? Wow, thats a lot I hope i can get that much when I change mine.
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Previous cars

1973 Opel Manta
1969(?) Fiat 850 Convertible
1979 Lancia Beta Coupe
1981 Alfa Romeo GTV 6
1985 Alfa Romeo Graduate
1985 Porsche 944
1989 Porsche 944
1981 Triumph TR7
1989 (?) Alfa Romeo Milano
1993 Saab 9000
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:37 PM   #11
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Why are you running so much negative camber in the rear? Unless I am mistaken, to dial out understeer, the idea is to get the rear camber less than the front.
To be honest they didn't do what I asked or they simply misunderstood me. In any case I'm happy with it, feels great.

I have lowering springs, that might be why I got -1.4 out of the stock suspension. Everything apart from the springs is stock.
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Old 04-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #12
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You should be fine with those camber settings.

What did you set toe at?

I run -3.0 and 0" toe front and -2.0 1/16" toe in rear. I do have GT3 arms.

I signed up today for the DE and the time trial. Also I can point you to a reliable SLC place that can do alignments for a lot less than $169.
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Old 04-19-2012, 05:20 PM   #13
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You should be fine with those camber settings.

What did you set toe at?

I run -3.0 and 0" toe front and -2.0 1/16" toe in rear. I do have GT3 arms.

I signed up today for the DE and the time trial. Also I can point you to a reliable SLC place that can do alignments for a lot less than $169.
Innovative Garage? Let me know who you're referring to.

Seeing how this will be my first HPDE I'm sure it will work for my skill level.

Rear tow is .10 LR and .13 RR.

How do you like your settings? Is this just something you went with our is it your final setting after many. Also how much do GT3 arms cost?

I didn't register yet but I plan to. I'm going to the autocross event towards the end of the month as well. I should also add I originally wanted to have it done by Russ alignment but they're booked for sometime. They're normally who I've used for sometime now

Last edited by Saudin801; 04-19-2012 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by san rensho View Post
Ah, the slippery slope. You are definitely hitting the track pipe hard. Good for you.
I'm an addict!
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:32 AM   #15
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Rear tow is .10 LR and .13 RR.

Which equals 1/10 + 3/20 = 5/20 = 1/4" = way too much toe in. You cannot get that much camber in the rear without having too much toe whilst still using the stock suspension. I do not believe you are going to love your new setup nor what it does to your tires. I suspect that it is going to push like a bulldozer and destroy its rear tires.

Laurie
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:05 PM   #16
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Since we don't know whether those specs are in degrees or inches let's stop the bulldozer talk. In degrees it's fine. .23" of total toe would be a bit more than desired but is not going to kill the fun or the tires immediately. On most cars when power is applied the rear tends to toe out. If everything is solid back there (spherical bearings) that would really be a big deal, but it's a stock car with rubber bushings of unknown age running Hoosiers.

No matter what the settings, a stock Boxster is going to plow and that is what Porsche intended.

The alignment place is Ability Automotive, just off 3900 S. About $80 for whatever specs you want.
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:08 PM   #17
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Since we don't know whether those specs are in degrees or inches let's stop the bulldozer talk. In degrees it's fine. .23" of total toe would be a bit more than desired but is not going to kill the fun or the tires immediately. On most cars when power is applied the rear tends to toe out. If everything is solid back there (spherical bearings) that would really be a big deal, but it's a stock car with rubber bushings of unknown age running Hoosiers.

No matter what the settings, a stock Boxster is going to plow and that is what Porsche intended.

The alignment place is Ability Automotive, just off 3900 S. About $80 for whatever specs you want.
Thanks Max, I know exactly where it is. That's a killer price.

Toe is in degrees, I thought that was assumed. It's still within factory allowed tolerance.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:40 PM   #18
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Apologies for my mistaking the degrees for inches. I assumed the toe in inches based on the camber settings. Absolutely no idea how they achieved that with a stock setup. I have always been led to believe that you cannot get both camber and (lack of) toe without adjustable rear toe links. Must be wrong. Good luck.
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