Swapping engines

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

A guy I know didn't have an impact socket, which are 6 point, so he said he was going to use a standard 12-point socket instead. I advised against it. He called me back and sheepishly admitted he had rounded off the bolt's head. "I should have listened to you," he said. I don't know everything, but I do know using a 12-point non-hardened socket with an impact wrench is flirting with disaster.

Oh yeah! That's begging for trouble!

[JFP in PA]

You need what is call a "pass thru socket" set:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91kvbpIVoDL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

The sockets have a large thru opening that the screw driver can pass thru and uses a special rachet that grips the flats on the outside of the butt end of the socket:

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

You need what is call a "pass thru socket" set:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91kvbpIVoDL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

The sockets have a large thru opening that the screw driver can pass thru and uses a special rachet that grips the flats on the outside of the butt end of the socket:

I recommended a similar set to her about a week or so ago, but she she said she needs a 12-point thin-walled socket and these appear to be neither.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

You need what is call a "pass thru socket" set:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91kvbpIVoDL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

The sockets have a large thru opening that the screw driver can pass thru and uses a special rachet that grips the flats on the outside of the butt end of the socket:

Now that you mention it, I would actually love to have a set of those. However, I'd be surprised if the set's 7/16" socket has a small enough outside diameter to fit in the notch and on the nut, since few do. You've installed a number of Solutions and you must be aware of the flange notch's small size, making access to the nut difficult with standard tools, so what do you use to tighten the center stud's nut?

[JFP in PA]

I have both Snap On and Astro pass thru socket sets and use one of them. At one time, both were available in both six and twelve point design, but the twelve point fell out of favor and became harder to find. We also have a couple of "modified" sockets that had the centers drilled out larger and the outside tip turned down slightly on our lathe.

Also be aware that the opening in the flange has changed over time as they updated the design, and that notch has become smaller, requiring some creativity on the installer.

[piper6909]

Congrats on the new house!!

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Congrats on the new house!!

Thanks, Al. I'm excited.

[Gilles]

somehow I cannot find the link someone shared here about the 'thin wall sockets'..

[LoneWolfGal]

I'm back from the world of inspections, preliminary reports, seller disclosures, vesting deeds, septic and well-water test results, etc., etc., and the inevitable so forth. Now I need to get cracking on that engine, get it all ready to stick in the car. The OEM cam chain wear pads (a.k.a. timing chain guide rail sets for VarioCam solenoid-actuated chain adjusters) and assorted seals and gaskets I ordered from Pelican on 3/7 hadn't arrived yet, so I called them to see what the holdup was. Turned out they had the wrong billing address associated with my debit card, which seems strange, given that I've ordered lots of stuff from them with the same card. I gave them the correct billing address, the card went though, and they said they would ship the order out today. No harm, no foul, since I won't be ready for those parts until next week. It's too late today to run that socket over to the machine shop and have them drill it out to 3/8". I've broken or worn out three drill bits so far, but I have more bits left, so I might give it another try tonight. Once the screwdriver can fit through it I can finally torque the IMS stud nut. I also picked up a couple of sheetrock screws, which Jake Raby claims is just the ticket (together with pliers) for removing the old rear main seal. The new seal and installation tool for setting the seal's depth are ready to go.

[LoneWolfGal]

It dawned on me that drilling the socket was the wrong approach. Once again, an 80-grit tungsten-carbide grinding drum, one with a small diameter, was a better solution. Took about 15 minutes.

[theiceman]

i cant get a clear pic of the stud.. is it slotted in the middle ,, is that a small hole with a thread inside ??

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by theiceman

i cant get a clear pic of the stud.. is it slotted in the middle ,, is that a small hole with a thread inside ??

The stud has a slot with a hole in the center, which makes it necessary to use a fairly large flat-blade screwdriver, large enough to span the hole. Not sure about the purpose of the hole, but it's not threaded inside.

[theiceman]

okay i have read the thread over and i think i understand your issue .. as a mechanical guy i think i can help... if LN cant.

now that you can get a socket on and hold the middle with the screwdriver... .. you need to grind 2 flats on the socket..

this will allow you to put a crowfoot on the socket, then put your torque wrench on the crows foot and tighten to spec. Remember that the torque value will need to be recalculated due to the length of the crow's-foot but that value is easy ...

just remember your torque wrench has to fit on the crows foot and clear the socket.. I have a small head beam torque wrench which is perfect, but they might be hard to find now.

something like this if the head of your torque wrench is too big.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ttn-23140?srsltid=AfmBOopI5wdDN9cYew5rCafy3rX_JrlLD1np 3yvxx_Jx2pEQD6JddE2zKtQ

[JFP in PA]

Use the crows foot at a right angle to the torque wrench head and no correction is required.

The problem you are encountering is why we use the pass thru sockets I mentioned earlier; they have a hex built into them:

[LoneWolfGal]

Thanks, guys. I see how a crowfoot would work in this application. With a crowfoot on the socket the nut could be torqued while the screwdriver holds the stud. Sort of a Rube Goldberg solution, but whatever works is a good solution. In the service of this approach, I just bought a $15 set of metric crowfoot wrenches and a $53 bench grinder with a 6" wheel for grinding the flats on the socket. I wanted one anyway. Even if Jake comes up with a different solution, I can always use the tools.

Honestly, I could've completely rebuilt a 350 cu in Chevy engine in less time than I've spent fiddling with these wackadoodle problems.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

Honestly, I could've completely rebuilt a 350 cu in Chevy engine in less time than I've spent fiddling with these wackadoodle problems.

Welcome to the world of Porsche ownership and maintenace.................

And believe it or not, Porsche actually makes and sells an obscure and very expensive tool that does exactly what is being described..........

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Welcome to the world of Porsche ownership and maintenace...

It's humbling, as I said. On the plus side, it does supply plenty of you-gotta-be-kidding stories to tell.

And believe it or not, Porsche actually makes and sells an obscure and very expensive tool that does exactly what is being described..........

I don't doubt it. Have you seen one in the flesh?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by LoneWolfGal

It's humbling, as I said. On the plus side, it does supply plenty of you-gotta-be-kidding stories to tell.



I don't doubt it. Have you seen one in the flesh?

I've only seen photos of it, basically it is exactly what just about everyone cobbles together to get the job done, only it cost $400 nearly 15 years ago. Funny bit is I was picking up parts at my local Porsche dealer and a tech was replacing a leaking IMS flange (common on early models, Porshe released a second design with better lip seals), and I looked at what he was using: a cheap deep socket with the business end turned down slightly on a lathe, center drilled out, and a nut welded on the back of it. A $10 functional replacement for the $400 factory tool...................

[piper6909]

Sorry I didn't read this before you went out and bought more tools, but probably the reason they suggested a 'zip' driver is because it makes sudden impact bursts which could jar the nut into turning without the stud, same way using an impact gun on a wheel lug will not cause the entire wheel to turn like it would when using lug wrench. You could make your own "impact" by simply putting a ratchet on it and lightly tapping the handle with a hammer. Then once you're comfortable that it's properly seated and turns you could troque down to spec.

[LoneWolfGal]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Sorry I didn't read this before you went out and bought more tools, but probably the reason they suggested a 'zip' driver is because it makes sudden impact bursts which could jar the nut into turning without the stud, same way using an impact gun on a wheel lug will not cause the entire wheel to turn like it would when using lug wrench. You could make your own "impact" by simply putting a ratchet on it and lightly tapping the handle with a hammer. Then once you're comfortable that it's properly seated and turns you could troque down to spec.

Jake Raby replied to my trouble ticket:

"Piper6909 in the thread is offering some good information. Usually when this scenario occurs the threads of the stud, or the nut have debris or burrs creating this instance. Heavy lubricants can also lead to this when applied to threads. With all the assistance on the thread you have what you need to move forward. The trick that LN advised may seem unorthodox, but it works and does so without any detrimental impacts."

Al, since I don't have a pneumatic zip gun, I'm going to try my powered ratchet and maybe the old-school impact hammer method you suggested. The crowfoot set and bench grinder won't be here until tomorrow anyway. I'm not sorry I bought them. You can't have too many tools. I plan to pick up the set of pass-thru sockets JFP recommended.