Buying with IMS replaced

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by kk2002s

So does an IMSB replacement (Using a Populate name brand) have any value if it's done by the owner in their own garage?
So if the owner does the clutch, RMS and IMSB and drives the care a year no issues, does that put that car into the IMSB replaced category for resale??
OR
Does it have to be Shop done to really give it the seal of approval.

Depends upon the owner and when it was done. If the owner seems mechanically inept, or if the IMS was very recently done, I would be concerned.

[jrgill]

JFP - Why would you you be concerned about the sale of a 986 that recently has the IMS bearing replaced? I understand it's a red flag (why would the owner do that and not use for a period of time) but would like your thoughts on the issue.

Joe

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by jrgill

JFP - Why would you you be concerned about the sale of a 986 that recently has the IMS bearing replaced? I understand it's a red flag (why would the owner do that and not use for a period of time) but would like your thoughts on the issue.

Joe

More than once, we have been asked to do a PPI on a vehicle that had a very recent IMS transplant, only to find metal in the sump and filter, which is why the owner tried to do a quick retrofit and then dump the car. Considering what a retrofit costs, I am always suspicious of someone that does one and then immediately puts the car up for sale.

[jrgill]

JFP - makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the information.

Joe

[356Guy]

The problem is, around here at least, you are looking at $3-5k to get the IMS and clutch done depending on what IMSB and whether the flywheel gets done or not. Add on $1-2k for other found work and that is a tough pill to swallow on a $15-20k car. You are then left with either trying to find a suitable car with the IMSB done already or taking your chances and dealing with the 8% failure rate (if the stats are right). For those of us that can wrench ourselves then at least you have the option of dropping a grand or two of labor off if you don't mind spending the time.

[Nedlands]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

More than once, we have been asked to do a PPI on a vehicle that had a very recent IMS transplant, only to find metal in the sump and filter, which is why the owner tried to do a quick retrofit and then dump the car. Considering what a retrofit costs, I am always suspicious of someone that does one and then immediately puts the car up for sale.

So in my case, I would want to do the retrofit to help actually sell the car. This would be classed as a red flag? Just like no IMS retrofit is also a red flag! You can't win!
I advertised the car at the end of last summer and got lots of "Nice car but I think I will pass since the IMS hasn't been done!", not even lower offers. People have been driven to the point of paranoia by the forums and the "specialists" who profit from the retrofits. And if I get it done and use the EPS roller bearing retrofit or the Pelican parts retrofit will that be inadequate because it's not the LN version?
In reality, my car is probably worth somewhere North of $12-14k. I would price it to sell for what it's worth but almost feel I need to inflate the price to allow for the $3K discount that people will want since they "need" to do the retrofit?
Go buy a cheaper car and then spend the $ fixing that instead!!!

[Frank N]

I wouldn't replace the IMS if I was going to sell it. You won't get that money back.

[pidj]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

More than once, we have been asked to do a PPI on a vehicle that had a very recent IMS transplant, only to find metal in the sump and filter, which is why the owner tried to do a quick retrofit and then dump the car. Considering what a retrofit costs, I am always suspicious of someone that does one and then immediately puts the car up for sale.

So why does it matter if there is metal present POST IMS change? When we detect metal, we swap the IMS (to alleviate the metal presence) - would more frequent oil changes and monitoring not clear the shavings? If not, then any metal presence would mean the engine is toast regardless of what was or is done, non?

It also begs the question about the $$ 'solution' option (oil pumped into bearing-less 'bearing')? Nedlands is right: What are you supposed to do? Doing it could be bad, not doing it is bad, metal shavings after doing it is bad .... bad bad bad.

[algiorda]

You have to manage this like you manage all risks:

The risk is: IMS failure. What is the probability the IMS will fail? 1%= Low 3%=Medium 30%=High

For a medium to high risk, you mitigate by replacing the IMS. If you do not replace the IMS, an ISSUE develops. The issue is engine failure. To mitigate a low risk, you change oil frequently, drive spirited, check oil filter for debris, etc.

JFP is introducing a NEW Risk: Replacing the IMS can introduce New IMS bearing failure.

Again, you have to weigh the risk: What is the probability a NEW bearing will fail due to poor installation, materials, design? .5-1%=Low, 1-3%=Medium, 10-30%=High.

So to evaluate the new risk, evaluate the possibility you may have a Lower risk with a replaced/repaired IMS and thus you have reduced your original risk of 3-30% to 1%.

That is a reasonable mitigation strategy.

In my case my 2004 was in the HIGH Risk category as several Indy's and salvage experts (Woody) have seen quite a few engine failures for 2004 due in part to the IMS failure. I have reduced my 30% risk to 1% or less replacing it with a new LN Retro kit.

You can also boil down the risk of using an OEM IMS kit VS. LN Retro Kit VS Others. One would have to do frequency analysis of IMS failures from each and the calculate the risk proportionately.

So perhaps we can create a mathematical formula for everyone to enter their environmental factors into an equation to give you a risk value to determine if you need to mitigate your IMS Risk?

[Seadweller]

I bought my '98 with 35K miles from the original owner, and he had the IMS and RMS done at 25K miles by an "authorized" LN Engineering shop as a preventative maintenance item. Part of the reason I even went to look at it was because this had been done.

I previously owned Carrera's (model years '78 - '85), and a Porsche buddy of mine sent me the link to the Boxster, with a note that said "IMS and RMS done!" At the time, I had no clue what the "IMS" was, until researching it, and that's coming from a long-time Porsche owner. That said, I believe the greater public likely has no idea the "issue" exists.

While I realize that there are thousands of Boxster's running around with their original IMS, I look at it this way. If an early Boxster would likely sell in the range of $9K-$12K, and the same Boxster with a blown engine would sell for $3K-$5K, then the $2.5K insurance the IMS provides is worth the cost of admission.

[pidj]

Originally Posted by algiorda

You have to manage this like you manage all risks:

The risk is: IMS failure. What is the probability the IMS will fail? 1%= Low 3%=Medium 30%=High

For a medium to high risk, you mitigate by replacing the IMS. If you do not replace the IMS, an ISSUE develops. The issue is engine failure. To mitigate a low risk, you change oil frequently, drive spirited, check oil filter for debris, etc.

JFP is introducing a NEW Risk: Replacing the IMS can introduce New IMS bearing failure.

Again, you have to weigh the risk: What is the probability a NEW bearing will fail due to poor installation, materials, design? .5-1%=Low, 1-3%=Medium, 10-30%=High.

So to evaluate the new risk, evaluate the possibility you may have a Lower risk with a replaced/repaired IMS and thus you have reduced your original risk of 3-30% to 1%.

That is a reasonable mitigation strategy.

In my case my 2004 was in the HIGH Risk category as several Indy's and salvage experts (Woody) have seen quite a few engine failures for 2004 due in part to the IMS failure. I have reduced my 30% risk to 1% or less replacing it with a new LN Retro kit.

You can also boil down the risk of using an OEM IMS kit VS. LN Retro Kit VS Others. One would have to do frequency analysis of IMS failures from each and the calculate the risk proportionately.

So perhaps we can create a mathematical formula for everyone to enter their environmental factors into an equation to give you a risk value to determine if you need to mitigate your IMS Risk?

Well stated!

[kk2002s]

Originally Posted by pidj

So why does it matter if there is metal present POST IMS change? When we detect metal, we swap the IMS (to alleviate the metal presence) - would more frequent oil changes and monitoring not clear the shavings? If not, then any metal presence would mean the engine is toast regardless of what was or is done, non?

It also begs the question about the $$ 'solution' option (oil pumped into bearing-less 'bearing')? Nedlands is right: What are you supposed to do? Doing it could be bad, not doing it is bad, metal shavings after doing it is bad .... bad bad bad.

If metal is present, it becomes a whole different ball game. Typically this would prevent a highly respected shop from performing the IMSB replacement without checking for damage and then cleaning the motor of debris if no damage found (Big time $$$). Otherwise this metal is flowing around and causing all kinds of destruction. That introduces another level of risk some can live with hoping that with many oil changes the majority of debris is removed.

Look I'm living with the risk. My 02 is in that higher risk range and I'm at 92k miles. My risk level is to wait until it's clutch time. I check filter & sump for metal but that only gives some level of comfort while not finding anything.

[pidj]

Understood. Is moving to the bearing-less oil injection solution better (I imagine it's more $$ - would you pay more for THAT Boxster?)? Does anyone know if it has a decent sample size to determine if it's effective?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by algiorda

JFP is introducing a NEW Risk: Replacing the IMS can introduce New IMS bearing failure.

Not at all what I was referring to. People suddenly find metal in their oil, and immediately do the cheapest IMS retrofit in an attempt to get the engine to hold together long enough to either sell of trade in the car before the engine blows. We, and other shops, have seen this more than once. So if you find a car up for sale that has had a very recent retrofit, it would be a good idea to ask yourself why.......

[356Guy]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Not at all what I was referring to. People suddenly find metal in their oil, and immediately do the cheapest IMS retrofit in an attempt to get the engine to hold together long enough to either sell of trade in the car before the engine blows. We, and other shops, have seen this more than once. So if you find a car up for sale that has had a very recent retrofit, it would be a good idea to ask yourself why.......

Maybe one is better off buying a car without the upgrade and just oil sampling, mag plug, cut the filter, etc. to monitor. Chances are that its just had a recent oil change so looking at the filter won't tell you much. The first few thousand miles are somewhat of a gamble I guess. There are quite a few low mileage cars up here. I think those might be even a bigger risk.

[algiorda]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA View Post
Not at all what I was referring to. People suddenly find metal in their oil, and immediately do the cheapest IMS retrofit in an attempt to get the engine to hold together long enough to either sell of trade in the car before the engine blows. We, and other shops, have seen this more than once. So if you find a car up for sale that has had a very recent retrofit, it would be a good idea to ask yourself why.......

Isn't this an "oxymoron"? Either its a cheap replacement or a retrofit. The LN Retrofit is not a cheap replacement. It's the only solution that brands itself as a retrofit. Some other replacements are OEM. Other solutions are of a different design with roller bearings.

So what exactly do you mean by a Cheap retrofit?

[pidj]

Just to add to what is now becoming an anxiety inducing (to this new owner), frustrating thread, I made the mistake of visiting and reading Jake Raby's website. That's like a nervous flyer watching an air disaster movie whilst in flight. OMG. "Paper thin pistons", "it's going to happen ..."

I give up. Apparently I got taken for a ride to buy a car that has like a 90% M96 failure rate. The guy (Raby) sounds like he knows his stuff which is troubling since experts typically embrace balance ... but not him.

To copy an idea off of this thread: I'll drive it. I don't drive 'spirited' all the time (so that'll help shorten its life) but I'll enjoy what limited time I have with it until it becomes a really big paper weight.

[mikefocke]

A M96 is not a Toyota engine. Every engine is a compromise in design and cost with the engineers and the accountants fighting over what gets put into the engine. Put a big lump of iron in there in '97 and you don't get a Boxster. But they did.

For those who want a balanced approach to the whole IMS thing, go read this.

For someone who has maintained hundreds of engines, listen to JFP.

Don't let personalities lead you astray. Don't let quantity one experiences sway you. Don't let internet posting on forums from folks who don't have a multi years track record of helping P-car owners influence you.

Your car, your money, your decision.

Wonderful cars.

[Timco]

Originally Posted by pidj

Just to add to what is now becoming an anxiety inducing (to this new owner), frustrating thread, I made the mistake of visiting and reading Jake Raby's website. That's like a nervous flyer watching an air disaster movie whilst in flight. OMG. "Paper thin pistons", "it's going to happen ..."

I give up. Apparently I got taken for a ride to buy a car that has like a 90% M96 failure rate. The guy (Raby) sounds like he knows his stuff which is troubling since experts typically embrace balance ... but not him.

To copy an idea off of this thread: I'll drive it. I don't drive 'spirited' all the time (so that'll help shorten its life) but I'll enjoy what limited time I have with it until it becomes a really big paper weight.

Well, all experts have differing opinions and a different way of explaining them. Is it GOING to happen? Well, that's a stretch to say the least. I'm sure some have failed for other reasons. Paper thin? Sounds like a comparison and not an actual measurement. I'll bet Porsche had a reason but those terms made you worry, right? Advertising.

As a steam boiler expert, I'll say that any pressure vessel can explode. Any. Did I just convince you to buy an extra low water cut off or pressure kill switch? What if I say that 99.99% do not explode? Facts can be worded any way someone wants you to feel. It's called advertising. I don't like shock and worry the customer advertising personally, but at some point you need to be aware of the possibilities and other experiences.

Someday, you WILL die. I promise. Should you give up and stay indoors now, or chance it and go outside?

[That986]

Massively overhyped problem. The paranoia around it is unreal.

I bought a 2000 S last year with 90000 miles on it. I've since driven 9000 miles on top of that and how many times have i thought about the IMS? Not once.

Buy the car, enjoy the car, smile with it as you're blasting that corner.