IMS class action suit

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by landrovered

Just because a lawyer is willing to "roll the dice" on a class action suit by fronting the costs knowing that he might win big in one out of three or four cases. There is still lots of collateral damage to the companies being litigated against. You seem to forget that the company being sued still has to pay to defend itself from the lawsuit even when there is no settlement or merit to the case, so it is far from a "no harm, no foul" situation.

Yeah, sure, but a big corporation like Porsche has a whole stable of attorneys on the payroll all the time...might as well make 'em earn their keep!

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Yeah, sure, but a big corporation like Porsche has a whole stable of attorneys on the payroll all the time...might as well make 'em earn their keep!

Alas, they're not litigators. For that Porsche would have to retain (and pay) outside counsel.

[landrovered]

Ok, lets pretend that a class action is filed, everyone that bought a M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy. Would that make everyone feel better? What do you saber rattlers really want other than to ******************** and moan and complain?

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

Alas, they're not litigators. For that Porsche would have to retain (and pay) outside counsel.

None able to set foot in a court room and boldly carry the day for Porsche? Not one? How can you possibly know that? Even assuming what you say is true (and I make no such assumption), they've got resources, and they're in a better position than anyone to know all the relevant factual aspects of the case---not exactly a ton of research necessary on their part, they've already got the data, and what they don't know, along with the basic groundwork legal research, all their toady non-courtroom advocates can search up and prepare for their team of courtroom hired guns. Actually? They may well already have...

And even if they do have to hire a team of litigants, let 'em. Hell, they can afford it. Had they addressed the issue years ago when it first became evident there was a problem (instead of pretending there wasn't), they'd have saved everyone, including themselves, a lot of headaches (and heartache, for those individuals stuck with a ton of scrap iron that used to be a Porsche automobile). It's called a good faith effort to fix something they screwed up, and continued to screw up year after year. Lots of people out there would have much more of a warm fuzzy feeling about Porsche had they done so...and that warm fuzzy would surely translate into increased sales at the dealership. They, to one degree or another, shot themselves in the foot on this, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by landrovered

Ok, lets pretend that a class action is filed, everyone that bought a M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy. Would that make everyone feel better? What do you saber rattlers really want other than to ******************** and moan and complain?

This isn't about Porsche owners "feeling better", it's about Porsche owning up to some stupid decisions that have been made on their part, their culpable refusal to acknowledge and fix a problem they've known about for years and yet, in the face of that knowledge, have continued to perpetuate and foist upon unsuspecting buyers in subsequent model releases.

Personally? I neither moan nor complain, I simply express an opinion. And I'm pretty sure I don't even have a saber to rattle---I'm not really looking for restitution from Porsche. My Box is an '01. It could be credibly argued, I suspect, that my ride was produced early enough in the game that knowledge of the IMSB defect (and its disastrous sequella, engine-wise) could not be imputed to the folks at Porsche and, if that argument is accepted, that I wouldn't have standing to collect anything from them. In any case, I bought mine second-hand, so my case is especially weak. (I have wondered, though, if a case against Porsche could be successfully founded upon a theory of an implied warranty of merchantability IF brought by the original purchaser and the machine dies an IMSB-related death prematurely. Cannot a consumer reasonably expect a well-maintained car to make it to, say, 100k miles at a minimum? I've said it before on this forum---I think there's a strong argument that that IS a reasonable expectation.)

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by Frodo

None able to set foot in a court room and boldly carry the day for Porsche? Not one? How can you possibly know that? Even assuming what you say is true (and I make no such assumption), they've got resources, and they're in a better position than anyone to know all the relevant factual aspects of the case---not exactly a ton of research necessary on their part, they've already got the data, and what they don't know, along with the basic groundwork legal research, all their toady non-courtroom advocates can search up and prepare for their team of courtroom hired guns. Actually? They may well already have...

And even if they do have to hire a team of litigants, let 'em. Hell, they can afford it. Had they addressed the issue years ago when it first became evident there was a problem (instead of pretending there wasn't), they'd have saved everyone, including themselves, a lot of headaches (and heartache, for those individuals stuck with a ton of scrap iron that used to be a Porsche automobile). It's called a good faith effort to fix something they screwed up, and continued to screw up year after year. Lots of people out there would have much more of a warm fuzzy feeling about Porsche had they done so...and that warm fuzzy would surely translate into increased sales at the dealership. They, to one degree or another, shot themselves in the foot on this, plain and simple.

No offense or anything, I'm sure you're a very smart person, but this is clearly not your field of expertise. Probably best to quit while you're... only this far behind.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

No offense or anything, I'm sure you're a very smart person, but this is clearly not your field of expertise. Probably best to quit while you're... only this far behind.

Uhh, Excuse Me?? What makes you the expert here? I what I need to know about these cars, and also more than a bit about the legal profession, believe you me...

But for the "", offense would have been taken!

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by Frodo

I what I need to know about these cars

Man, you're just digging it deeper. Is that supposed to make sense?

As to your knowledge of the practices of the legal profession... okay. I stand corrected. Your suggestion that a corporation would litigate a major class action lawsuit (and believe me, they're all major) by using corporate counsel instead of retaining outside litigators sounded like someone who didn't know what they were talking about with respect to commercial litigation.

Wait... it still does!

[Mark_T]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

Man, you're just digging it deeper. Is that supposed to make sense?

As to your knowledge of the practices of the legal profession... okay. I stand corrected. Your suggestion that a corporation would litigate a major class action lawsuit (and believe me, they're all major) by using corporate counsel instead of retaining outside litigators sounded like someone who didn't know what they were talking about with respect to commercial litigation.

Wait... it still does!

This is a good debate and everyone should feel welcome to express their opinion on the topic, including you and including Frodo. There is no need to be an ass and make personal attacks.

[cbbepop]

Originally Posted by landrovered

Ok, lets pretend that a class action is filed, everyone that bought a M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy. Would that make everyone feel better? What do you saber rattlers really want other than to ******************** and moan and complain?

If the company/brand/product is legit, they will survive.

Audi has been through this with the whole "run away accelerator" problem. They're still around and doing better than ever and more responsible might I suggest. Granted, the management who were originally in charge of the company during that fiasco may have gotten fired and new young hungry execs in their offices...but atlas that's the rules of the game.

We all love Porsche, that's why we are here, but the company needs to continue to earn that love.

[johnsimion]

Originally Posted by landrovered

Ok, lets pretend that a class action is filed, everyone that bought a M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy. Would that make everyone feel better? What do you saber rattlers really want other than to ******************** and moan and complain?

Yes. If everyone who bought an M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy, so be it. They are no different than any other big corporation. Too bad so sad.

Of course, your Armageddon scenario would never happen, because (a) Porsche is rich as he!! and paying $400 per customer would be chump change for them, and (b) because they would settle for providing an extended warranty (that they ought to have done in the first place). The extended warranty would cost them nothing if the IMS is really as trouble free as certain people seem to believe. Yeah, the IMS is just a great engineering design. Because there were no IMS problems, Porsche itself changed the design over and over before abandoning it altogether. Uh huh.

These cars are not well engineered and the company has piss-poor customer relations. They deserve what they get. It's not just the IMS, it's also D-chunks and slipped sleeves on the old ones, and now oil starvation and scored cylinders on the new ones. It's installing seatbacks on the 986 that are so short that tall people can hit their head directly on the rollbar in a rear-end collision. It's steering that can't make a sharp turn in reverse in winter without making a sound like an explosion. It's frunks that can't open to replace a dead battery without a huge rigamarole -- because they opted for an electronic opener instead of a simple wire. It's convertible tops on the 986 that can't fold if the temperature is cold because the cheap SOBs put a plastic window -- same technology as a 1960 MGB. It's the dealer who delivers your brand new car with cosmoline on the wheels and then the service manager tells you (after keeping the car all day) that you have to have another appointment to have the wheels repainted (it's OK, another forum taught me to fix that myself!).

IMHO they get by with murder because they produce a good-looking, fun car to drive and they've got a great publicity department, but legend notwithstanding, they are not just Hans and Dieter working in a garage to build cars for the benefit of all mankind. They are just another big corporation out to maximize their profits, and they actually brag that they are the most profitable car company in the world. And they are doing it unhindered because of the attitude of certain people who buy into the hype, overlook all their faults, cover for them, and actually feel sorry for them if anyone suggests they actually take responsibility for their own actions. It's pathetic, but it's the power of hype.

[Coffinhunter]

I mean this as a legit question.

My 2003 S only has 26,000 miles on it (Not a daily driver until now). I expect to put a lot mre miles on it in the near future. After reading this site, and many others, I first got a little paranoid about the IMS bearing failure. However, the more I read, the more it looks like it is about a 1-4% failure rate. Sure when it fails it REALLY sucks, but it is not that common.

So now this thread is talking about a class action case and I just can't see that holding up. At worst let's say the 4% is the actual failure rate. How many products in the world have a greater failure rate than that? Honestly?!

We choose to drive expensive cars. They are not the most expensive out there, but if you don't want high cost maintenence or repairs, buy a Ford Fusion. I would be willing to bet they have a 4% failure rate on a major component. And I am a Ford guy (other than my Porsche). My wife had a 1995 (I think) Town & Country Mini van. The transmission went out at 38,000 miles (2,000 after warranty of course). Looked around the tranny shop and there were a ton of dodge/chrysler mini vans. No class action though.

Here is a quick internet search on failure rates, all above the Boxster IMS:

Repair rates for 3- to 4-year-old products.
Product Repair Rate
Laptop computer 43%
Refrigerator: side-by-side, with icemaker and dispenser 37
Rider mower 32
Lawn tractor 31
Desktop computer 31
Washing machine (front-loading) 29
Self-propelled mower 28
Vacuum cleaner (canister) 23
Washing machine (top-loading) 22
Dishwasher 21
Refrigerator: top- and bottom-freezer, w/ icemaker 20
Gas range 20
Wall oven (electric) 19
Push mower (gas) 18
Cooktop (gas) 17
Microwave oven (over-the-range) 17
Clothes dryer 15
Camcorder (digital) 13
Vacuum cleaner (upright) 13
Refrigerator: top- and bottom-freezer, no icemaker 12
Range (electric) 11
Cooktop (electric) 11
Digital camera 10
TV: 30- to 36-inch direct view 8
TV: 25- to 27-inch direct view 6

* SquareTrade

So enjoy the ride!

[CenterIsl]

Originally Posted by Coffinhunter

However, the more I read, the more it looks like it is about a 1-4% failure rate. Sure when it fails it REALLY sucks, but it is not that common.

And there are some things you can do to reduce that individual probability (change oil, check filter, magnetic drain plug, IMS Guardian, IMSB).

More importantly, there are things you can do to mitigate a catastrophic loss, the most obvious of which are to purchase an aftermarket warranty, use the Porsche dealer for maintenance (building goodwill) - or else sell the car and purchase something else with a warranty.

But the crux of this whole thead is that there are people who don't want to invest in the former, don't want to mitigate, but still want to be compensated. There are also folks who move into a flight path, and then try to get the flight path moved or runway shut down. They are pursuing something in their own self interest, and trying to suck you in to their venture.

[cbbepop]

Ppl who had suffered IMS issues, and can be proven that it was no fault of their ownership such as never changing an oil or throwing in some supercharger, should be compensated.
That is what's right. Simple as that.

Ppl who are worried but have not had IMS problems should not be compensated. Ofcourse its noted that their ownership of such vehicles will be hurt but who really bought this vehicle just to resell it for a huge trade in?