Needin' a new DD

[Frodo]

Thanks for all the replies. (And feel free to keep them coming ) A LOT to digest---don't know if my decision is getting easier or harder.

One thing I didn't mention in my original post: I'm pretty inclined to go for a manual transmission, eliminating a few of the suggestions made. Also, as far as snow driving goes: I'm pretty good in the snow myself, and so I've about decided that pretty much any front engine FWD car (as long as it's not too low) is probably going to work for me. AWDs are somewhat tempting (and yes, blue, et al, I am going to drive at least one WRX), but they do add weight (and reduce mileage). Haven't made any decision yet on FWD vs AWD.

Got the day off---leaving this moment to tackle some test drives!

[thstone]

Ok, since you asked a few more ideas, how about a Mini? The Mini S is sporty and great fun to drive. FWD. Manual trans are easy to find. Very stylish. Lots of tuner parts if you are so inclined. Better design, build, and material quality than a Korean, Japanese, or American econobox.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Thanks for all the replies. (And feel free to keep them coming ) A LOT to digest---don't know if my decision is getting easier or harder.

One thing I didn't mention in my original post: I'm pretty inclined to go for a manual transmission, eliminating a few of the suggestions made. Also, as far as snow driving goes: I'm pretty good in the snow myself, and so I've about decided that pretty much any front engine FWD car (as long as it's not too low) is probably going to work for me. AWDs are somewhat tempting (and yes, blue, et al, I am going to drive at least one WRX), but they do add weight (and reduce mileage). Haven't made any decision yet on FWD vs AWD.

Got the day off---leaving this moment to tackle some test drives!

I won't pretend that my WRX gets good gas mileage. It's consistantly 23-25 mpg. The non-turbo Imprezas do better in that respect.

Here's the thing, you can drive a FWD or RWD car in the snow. I've done both in Wisconsin and Minnesota. But there are times when you have to really pay attention to what you're doing.

With an AWD SUV, you have traction in bad weather, but you have no idea what the heck the vehicle is doing. There's no feedback from the road. The only way you can tell that you're at the adhesion limit is because you've crossed it and you're sliding. Ever wonder why most of the vehicles on the side of the road during a storm are SUVs and trucks? I don't wonder, and I'll never own an SUV or cross-over.

With a small, light, AWD car like an Impreza (any Impreza, you don't need the turbo) or the Audis, AWD 3-series and whatever else, you have traction and you can feel it. This not only makes winter driving do-able, it makes it fun. You know with an Impreza how slippery the conditions are and you can handle them. You know when the car isn't reacting to inputs as soon as you make them and you have time to react. The FWD cars on your list are all fun to drive and would be good for feeling the road. But the combination of feeling the road and having traction is pretty great.

That's just at the extreme of conditions. Even on dry roads, I prefer the handling of my AWD car to FWD. I had an Integra GSR that was a blast to drive, loved the car, but it was really easy to overwelm the traction limits of the front tires (and the engine was far from torque-y compared to the cars on your list). And the car was just OK in rotation (but great for FWD). My AWD cars (I currently have 2 Subarus and I've owned to AWD Mitsubishi Eclipses in the past) when stiffened a bit in the rear suspension, handle nearly as well as a RWD car as far as responsiveness to throttle inputs in both acceleration and yaw.

Snow tires make a huge difference, on any car, BTW. The difference from an all season tire is profound. I highly reccomend to anyone who lives where it snows that they spend the money for a dedicated set of snow tires. It's totally worth it for your safety and the safety of your family.

My opinion on European cars as daily drivers obviously isn't shared by everyone, but in my experience, from a financial standpoint, a used Japanese car has a significanly lower total cost of ownership from purchase to sale than a German car of the same year and general class.

Heck, my WRX is actually worth more than I bought it for 2 years ago, granted I got a good deal. My Porsche, on the other hand, is worth much less than it was over the same time frame, and painfully less than what it was when I bought it 6 years ago.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by thstone

Ok, since you asked a few more ideas, how about a Mini? The Mini S is sporty and great fun to drive. FWD. Manual trans are easy to find. Very stylish. Lots of tuner parts if you are so inclined. Better design, build, and material quality than a Korean, Japanese, or American econobox.

I had a 2008 Mini Cooper S for about two years . And, I definitely agree that the build quality on these vehicles is first rate . Moreover, I especially like the personalized design quotient that goes into the making of every vehicle. Be advised, however, that they're not the little "puddle jumpers" or "hair dresser" vehicles that most people think that they are; especially the "S" . My vehicle was all business - with a very performance oriented "feel" and "ride" to it . In fact, most of my friends who drove it felt that it was in many instances too harsh . In any case, as far as winter driving is concerned, unless one opts for a set of winter wheels and tires, you can forget about making it through any kind of snow . The wide, low profile tires make it absolutely atrocious in the snow . But, put some "steelies" and studded tires on it, and it will be transformed into a snow going beast !

[fivepointnine]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

I won't pretend that my WRX gets good gas mileage. It's consistantly 23-25 mpg. The non-turbo Imprezas do better in that respect.

Here's the thing, you can drive a FWD or RWD car in the snow. I've done both in Wisconsin and Minnesota. But there are times when you have to really pay attention to what you're doing.

With an AWD SUV, you have traction in bad weather, but you have no idea what the heck the vehicle is doing. There's no feedback from the road. The only way you can tell that you're at the adhesion limit is because you've crossed it and you're sliding. Ever wonder why most of the vehicles on the side of the road during a storm are SUVs and trucks? I don't wonder, and I'll never own an SUV or cross-over.

With a small, light, AWD car like an Impreza (any Impreza, you don't need the turbo) or the Audis, AWD 3-series and whatever else, you have traction and you can feel it. This not only makes winter driving do-able, it makes it fun. You know with an Impreza how slippery the conditions are and you can handle them. You know when the car isn't reacting to inputs as soon as you make them and you have time to react. The FWD cars on your list are all fun to drive and would be good for feeling the road. But the combination of feeling the road and having traction is pretty great.

That's just at the extreme of conditions. Even on dry roads, I prefer the handling of my AWD car to FWD. I had an Integra GSR that was a blast to drive, loved the car, but it was really easy to overwelm the traction limits of the front tires (and the engine was far from torque-y compared to the cars on your list). And the car was just OK in rotation (but great for FWD). My AWD cars (I currently have 2 Subarus and I've owned to AWD Mitsubishi Eclipses in the past) when stiffened a bit in the rear suspension, handle nearly as well as a RWD car as far as responsiveness to throttle inputs in both acceleration and yaw.

Snow tires make a huge difference, on any car, BTW. The difference from an all season tire is profound. I highly reccomend to anyone who lives where it snows that they spend the money for a dedicated set of snow tires. It's totally worth it for your safety and the safety of your family.

My opinion on European cars as daily drivers obviously isn't shared by everyone, but in my experience, from a financial standpoint, a used Japanese car has a significanly lower total cost of ownership from purchase to sale than a German car of the same year and general class.

Heck, my WRX is actually worth more than I bought it for 2 years ago, granted I got a good deal. My Porsche, on the other hand, is worth much less than it was over the same time frame, and painfully less than what it was when I bought it 6 years ago.

disagree about the AWD SUV's and feeling the road, our BMW X3 you can feel everything the vehicle is doing, it feels like you driving a high-riding 3 series

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

disagree about the AWD SUV's and feeling the road, our BMW X3 you can feel everything the vehicle is doing, it feels like you driving a high-riding 3 series

I've driven an X3, and a 328xi, my dad has one of each. The 328 has the X3 beat on road feel hands down. No comparison.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by thstone

Ok, since you asked a few more ideas, how about a Mini? The Mini S is sporty and great fun to drive. FWD. Manual trans are easy to find. Very stylish. Lots of tuner parts if you are so inclined. Better design, build, and material quality than a Korean, Japanese, or American econobox.

I agree it's a great driver's car. I drove the wheels off one at about 4 am in NYC one night. That thing moves. Although I spoke to a Mini Specialist in Florida and he all but talked me out of buying one for my mum which would have to be an automatic. The transmission is pure garbage he said. Too bad it would have been nice. And he had nothing good to say about the Mini aftermaket parts world as well.

[fullthrottle52]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here. Before everyone chirps in let me explain myself. I drive a dodge dakota pick up as my 2nd driver. I pretty much drive my box from March to December. I drive it on nice days or whenever I feel like it, which is most of the time. But when it is nasty out, snowing, or heavy rain I take the truck. If I want a fun car in the winter I would just get a car that is not a porsche and drive it all the time. I would probably go with the BMW 325i or something comparible. But, I have a sports car to drive most of the year and need a practicle vehicle for the times the Box just does not work, such as hauling things, driving in deep snow, taking a long trip etc. The truck has been very reliable and will go anywhere. Do I miss the driving excitment in the few winter months? Ya. But I have something during the whole year that is not similiar to what I drive for fun in the summer. EVERY MAN NEEDS A TRUCK IN THE DRIVEWAY!! Always handy.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by fullthrottle52

I'm going to go way out on a limb here. Before everyone chirps in let me explain myself. I drive a dodge dakota pick up as my 2nd driver. I pretty much drive my box from March to December. I drive it on nice days or whenever I feel like it, which is most of the time. But when it is nasty out, snowing, or heavy rain I take the truck. If I want a fun car in the winter I would just get a car that is not a porsche and drive it all the time. I would probably go with the BMW 325i or something comparible. But, I have a sports car to drive most of the year and need a practicle vehicle for the times the Box just does not work, such as hauling things, driving in deep snow, taking a long trip etc. The truck has been very reliable and will go anywhere. Do I miss the driving excitment in the few winter months? Ya. But I have something during the whole year that is not similiar to what I drive for fun in the summer. EVERY MAN NEEDS A TRUCK IN THE DRIVEWAY!! Always handy.

Believe it or not, I've had the very same thought. (I, too, need to haul stuff from time to time.) And...it's hard to explain, but there's something very relaxing, very satisfying about toolin' around in a pickup. But then in the winter I'd need to throw sand bags over the rear axle, and I'd hafta set all the radio presets to country music stations, and next thing ya know I'm goin' to hell in a hand basket...

[fivepointnine]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

I've driven an X3, and a 328xi, my dad has one of each. The 328 has the X3 beat on road feel hands down. No comparison.

oh I totally agree, a 328xi is an awesome car! but I like the ground clearance, room and towing capacity of the X3, but the X3, when compared to other SUV's feels more like a car, plus they pull more lateral G's than some sports cars and ALL SUV's.

if the OP does not want a SUV, I would look for a 325/328/330 xi...absolutely awesome cars

[jbs986]

Mini's and Bmw 325's will Nickel and dime you to death, a used Mini or a used Bmw cost a lot of $$$ in maintenance and repairs and of far-far from, being reliable.

An SUV or 4X4 truck are great in the snow,The Op seems to want a car for the winter and that's fine, may I suggest a Volvo S40 in fwd or Awd these car will fly throw snow and ice, great on gas and will last 200K miles with basic maintain done on them and can easily be bought in the price range the the OP is looking for.

Yes the Mini and the Bmw are great driving cars, so is my Porsche Boxster and my Lotus Elise, but with all the snow we get here in Michigan they all suck in the winter.That is way I have Volvo S40 R and a Jeep wrangler.

[unklekraker]

Originally Posted by fullthrottle52

I'm going to go way out on a limb here. Before everyone chirps in let me explain myself. I drive a dodge dakota pick up as my 2nd driver...... EVERY MAN NEEDS A TRUCK IN THE DRIVEWAY!! Always handy.

I agree! Before I started using my box as DD for the last 2 yrs (100 mi. both way), I used to drive my 01 4 x 4 Durango that has 5.9 engine on it...I don't know but for some reason, I prefer driving the truck. My dodgezilla has 210k mi. already before the 2nd gear start acting out on me...I guess the sound of the engine is very addictive and yes, he is still sitting on my driveway, driveable and has no plans to part with my dodgezilla

But back on the topic...I don't know a whole lot about car but if I were to choose, I would personally get Mini S or Mazda 3...zip in and out of the traffic plus has good mpg

[Deserion]

I had a 2007 GTI (Golf 5) for over 4 years and 95,000 miles. It was a near-loaded 4-door w/ DSG model. I really did love the car, was super fun to drive and was rather reliable as well. There weren't really any mechanical issues with it (beyond a few items early on), and it drove very well, was quick, and plain fun to drive. Earlier in the year I parted with it (due to a desire to slim my finances), and I do miss it these days.

Going to pick up a Mercedes E320 wagon (W210) in the next year to serve as a daily/household hauler.

[Frodo]

Yeah, I was actually leaning fairly heavily towards the GTI---nice looking machine, very responsive, and the interior just has a nice "feel" to it. Then, last night I started reading about some "excess oil consumption" problems that some of the VW engines have experienced. Most of the stories I read about were about cars a bit older than what I've been looking at (I've been checking out '08 and '09 models)---haven't yet figured out if it's a problem with the more recent years or not.

[Dave S.]

You might want to check out a nice used Audi S4. Very fun to drive and yet also refined enough for a 50 something...

[jbs986]

Oil problem is with the 1.8lL engines, both found in VW's and Audi's .the 2.0L does not suffer from this problem.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Yeah, I was actually leaning fairly heavily towards the GTI---nice looking machine, very responsive, and the interior just has a nice "feel" to it. Then, last night I started reading about some "excess oil consumption" problems that some of the VW engines have experienced. Most of the stories I read about were about cars a bit older than what I've been looking at (I've been checking out '08 and '09 models)---haven't yet figured out if it's a problem with the more recent years or not.

Got two buddies here at work who drive MkVI GTIs, and they know way too much about just about every VW that's existed, so I'll ask them about this. Of course if I tell them you're looking to get a GTI they're gonna try their hardest, through me, to get you to do it. I made the mistake of saying I wouldn't mind having an R32 to DD and have fun in the winter, and next thing I know one of them's practically doing the math on me trading in the Boxster, lol.

Hm...for that matter, maybe you should look into an R32 as well, Frodo (prob not a MkV, though, go for MkIV). AWD, 3.2 VR6, and it sounds lovely right out the box. It's probably the only VW I'd get, personally, not a big VW nor hatch fan otherwise.

[Perfectlap]

^ As a Boxster driver I found the GTI (loaner with paddles forget which model this was a year and half ago) to be almost too top heavy for me and the rather stiff suspension made it feel like I was driving a wooden bread box. The steering and braking were nice though. I guess you get kind of spoiled in these cars.

[Frodo]

Drove (among others) a couple of WRXs yesterday---pretty neat cars. One was a '07 Wagon, the other a '08 Sedan. Liked 'em both--a lot.

Anybody out there ever own, or otherwise have experience with, any Mazdaspeed 3s? I have found some pretty reasonably-priced ones close by with low mileage (one under 20k, others under 40k). (The WRXs in my price range---trying to keep this somewhat under $20k if possible---seem to have mileages in the 40-55k range, and are pretty much at that $20k asking price. Don't know how flexible they'd be on that---those cars are fairly few and far between.) The Mazdas were in the $16-17k range. Zoom zoom?

[fivepointnine]

I drove a '11 GTI yesterday.....there was a massive throttle lag that I could not stand.
Mazdaspeed 3's are pretty nice, a guy at my work has one, but I dont know too much about it