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Old 06-24-2005, 04:54 AM   #1
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deal on Michelins

ran across this at TireSavings.com for PS2s
Front 205/55-17 $146
Rear 245/40-17 $179
https://www.tiresavings.com/tireShop.php?action=findMan2&tirename=Pilot+Sport+PS2&season=Regular
seems like a good price

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Old 06-24-2005, 06:02 AM   #2
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Not to be a killjoy, because I know the Michelins are great tires, but I'll never put another of that company's products on any of my cars thanks to the fiasco I wated my time and money on at Indy last week.
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Old 06-24-2005, 08:40 AM   #3
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Yeah, I heard something about Michelin and an F1 race. What happened, they wouldn't let some of the drivers race because the tires were defective or something? Still, I wouldn't let some isolated event like that influence you from buying some of the best tires in the world. Maybe there is more to it...I dunno.
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:11 AM   #4
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Thumbs down Bummer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloBoxster
Not to be a killjoy, because I know the Michelins are great tires, but I'll never put another of that company's products on any of my cars thanks to the fiasco I wated my time and money on at Indy last week.
Man i feel your pain I went to the Grand Prix du Canada and it was great! Must say that the Renault right now are way over the curve. They took off like rockets and left everyone else behind. Reliability caught up to them and Alonso crashed into the wall of champions and that was it. Schuey made it close at the end when the Bridgestone finally kicked in. Another few more laps he would have passed him.
The issue with the tires and F-1 is unique. I would like to know what was Michelin thinking when their tires could not hack it. Oh Bridgestone lets put a chicane to slow the race down so i can race with my inferior tires. FIA did right in not bending the rules but this should have been done before hand not at race time. Everyone there deserves a refund for the tickets plus lodging plus a big fine levied against Michelin. It is a shame Michelin did this. So harmful to the sport that is trying to get into the mainstream of car racing here.
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Old 06-24-2005, 08:56 PM   #5
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I agree. I will never purchase Michelin products because of their behavior at Indy. Not because of their failure to bring proper tires, all manufacturers sometimes make mistakes, but for their insistance that the track be altered to suit their tires, or they would refuse to participate. Talk about throwing the rattle out of the pram! I also blame the teams for forming on the dummy grid, and then pulling in during the warm up lap. It showed complete disregard for the fans, while protecting their legal position against the race promoter (by driving the warm up lap, they have fulfilled their contractual requirements to Indianapolis Motor Speedway). Sad!
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Old 06-25-2005, 06:40 AM   #6
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Cool

Don't forget that the tires were *unsafe* in the area of the track that they wanted to place the chicane. If the teams would have gone ahead and run the race, it is likely that there would have been tire failures, wrecks, and possible deaths. Is that really what everyone wants?

Yes, Michelin failed to produce a tire that could hold up to the stress in that one area of the track. When they realized it, they proposed a solution that would let them still run their cars without exposing their drivers to excessive danger. When that didn't fly, they protected themselves by running the warmup lap, then did the only thing they could do... they protected their drivers by pulling out of the race.

It sucks to spend all the money that fans did, just to see that. Would you rather see a couple of drivers die? You'd be screaming for Michelin's head if they knowingly let their drivers run tires that wouldn't hold up, and someone died.

I think they did what they had to do.

Jack

Last edited by JackG; 06-25-2005 at 06:42 AM. Reason: mispelling
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Old 06-25-2005, 09:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackG
Don't forget that the tires were *unsafe* in the area of the track that they wanted to place the chicane. If the teams would have gone ahead and run the race, it is likely that there would have been tire failures, wrecks, and possible deaths. Is that really what everyone wants?

Yes, Michelin failed to produce a tire that could hold up to the stress in that one area of the track. When they realized it, they proposed a solution that would let them still run their cars without exposing their drivers to excessive danger. When that didn't fly, they protected themselves by running the warmup lap, then did the only thing they could do... they protected their drivers by pulling out of the race.

It sucks to spend all the money that fans did, just to see that. Would you rather see a couple of drivers die? You'd be screaming for Michelin's head if they knowingly let their drivers run tires that wouldn't hold up, and someone died.

I think they did what they had to do.

Jack
I fully agree...

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Old 06-26-2005, 01:28 PM   #8
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Tires from Michelin

Just remember that that corner has been at Indie for many years and Michelin should know how to make a tire to stand up to it. If they do such a poor job with this much riding on it, what will they do with their lowely passenger tires. I will NEVER buy MIchelins.
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Old 06-26-2005, 02:47 PM   #9
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Thumbs down Michelin

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackG
Don't forget that the tires were *unsafe* in the area of the track that they wanted to place the chicane. If the teams would have gone ahead and run the race, it is likely that there would have been tire failures, wrecks, and possible deaths. Is that really what everyone wants?

Yes, Michelin failed to produce a tire that could hold up to the stress in that one area of the track. When they realized it, they proposed a solution that would let them still run their cars without exposing their drivers to excessive danger. When that didn't fly, they protected themselves by running the warmup lap, then did the only thing they could do... they protected their drivers by pulling out of the race.

It sucks to spend all the money that fans did, just to see that. Would you rather see a couple of drivers die? You'd be screaming for Michelin's head if they knowingly let their drivers run tires that wouldn't hold up, and someone died.

I think they did what they had to do.

Jack
Other than calling them in a polite way a**holes I can't come to terms with their actions. Safety is paramount granted but the obligation to the public overrides that. MIchelin had ample time to prepare for this race and they had all the data from all previous 5 events there. It would be ludicrous to believe their "raison" oh we made a boo boo. The tires are engineered not by one person but a whole team of engineers on this case they should fire the whole team. The FIA in their study came to the conclusion that chicane would not reduced Michelin's problem but even compound it. It was an outright sham to line up and then go the pits. As far as I/m concerned fine them right up to the nose for this grieveous infraction. I would like to imagine this incident done in Europe or any place the fans would have burned the place down!
The FIA should do away with the one tire rule for the whole race since it is a safety issue. It already has happened to Raikkomen, R Shumacher but so far escaping the grim reaper. Eventually the laws of probability will catch up and blood will be spilled. It is unsafe to use the same of tires the same race because it deludes the faster concept favoring tempering your race to save the tires. In car racing that is dumb, always has , always will.
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Old 06-26-2005, 06:59 PM   #10
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[QUOTE=Pilot2519j]Other than calling them in a polite way a**holes I can't come to terms with their actions. Safety is paramount granted but the obligation to the public overrides that."

"the obligation to the public overides that"? Overides Safety? You are kidding, right?

They have an obligation to you, as the public, to spill blood to reduce your disappointment?

I've never heard something so infantile in all my life!

Reality check... engineering is not infallible. Mistakes are made. Guess what... my, and your, Boxster is not perfect, even with scores of engineers working on its design! Michelin tried to suggest a solution that would keep them in the race, the playing field would still be level, and *you* would not have been disappointed. Instead, the governing body shot it down. They are who you should direct your anger toward, because the entire field would have run, on the same track, with Michelin's proposed changes.

I *applaude* Michelin on taking their driver's lives as being more important than your personal satisfaction.
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Old 06-26-2005, 08:24 PM   #11
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Thumbs down Michelin wrong then and wrong now!

I *applaude* Michelin on taking their driver's lives as being more important than your personal satisfaction.[/QUOTE]

First I am not attacking you personally so don't take it wrong even though you allege "I am very infantile over this". I'm an engineer and I know things go wrong at any time nor am proposing Death Race 2000 either but how much time does Michelin need for a track in which they have raced 5 times in the same configuration? On the other hand Bridgestone had the tire for the race. Same configuration same curve same everything, they did their homework and were ready. You are trying to convince me that because one team is not ready Bridegstone, FIA & Indy Grand Prix should acquiesce to Michelin's arrogance. "I don't think so". They should have raced at the tolerance of the tire. IF that means they have to go 45 kph so be it. Their problem, their snafu, engineering faux pas what ever you want to call it their image right now is at rock bottom. I still will emphatically tell you Michelin would not have tried this in Europe.
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Old 06-26-2005, 08:43 PM   #12
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Great Debate and I totally agree...but lets thanks limoncello for the info! I'm always thankful for money saving tips or info. Thanks!!! By the way, anybody going to the Molson Indy in Toronto next weekend?
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:59 AM   #13
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I've had good performance with Michelins over the years on Volvo's & a couple of other cars. But they shot themselves in the foot at Indy. I agree that they did what they had to do safetywise, but this will leave a sour taste in folks for a while, and deservedly so. Will be curious to see how they recover.
Nuff said, & back to reasonably priced tires for Boxsters: I took some heat on this forum for getting Sumitomos - they're OK for me on the street (I don't push it that hard on the street) but on the track at limit they do scrub around certain corners, and I think the sidewall flex mentioned by another reader correctly identifies the problem. So I will run these tires down some and then change.
Any first hand knowledge of the PS2 or Contisports ON THE TRACK? Would appreciate it.
Also, it seems that going from my 17" to 18" and a lower profile may help on track, at some expense to street comfort. Open for experience on that as well. Thanks.
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Old 06-27-2005, 11:46 AM   #14
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Thumbs down boo hiss-Michelin

Great Debate!
I too lost out at Indy as well
It’s great to see that Michelin took safety as top priority, to save us from another Williams/Ayrton Senna disaster. However they have raced at Indy several times and should know the stresses involved there.
Several years ago JPM ran a whole race on one set of Michelins and I think that was at Indy but I may be wrong about the track. They even loaded up a jet and flew over a second batch to run and that set failed on the test rig with the same failure. It just seems to be a case of poor engineering but who knows it could be from the recent change in management for Michelin’s F-1 program. Regardless Michelin “was caught with their pants down” plain and simple and was not prepared for Indy. Those Pirelli and Bridgestones are sounding better each day!

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Old 06-27-2005, 12:06 PM   #15
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I am not one to reopen the debate, and certainly never one to defend the French. However, if I though Michelin made the best tire for my Box and I was after the best tire (ignoring price for the moment), I would buy it. If not, I would not.

I can't see the connection between what happens at Indy and what happens on my Box, but I could just be being stupid here. If so, enlighten me please.

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Old 06-29-2005, 06:06 AM   #16
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Smile Michelin Offers Us Fans A Refund

If you were one of the many that had tickets to the USGP Michelin is offering a refund..
I know this thread got off the topic but thought this would go with the debate...

Pez

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=33279
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:32 AM   #17
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This event makes me want to buy a set of Michelin tires. Too bad I spent $1000 on Toyo RA-1's. (just cut a side wall in the back had to buy a new one after only 1,700 miles $240).

I applaud Michelin for their decision to ensure the driver's safety. Anger directed at Michelin is misdirected. I am still appalled that a governing body would green light a race after the tire manufacuter cam out point blank and said we goofed and these tires are not safe. Yet the governing body said 'no, get in the cars and race". Utterly reprehensible decision making. A queue of cars weaving their way in 6th gear through a train of cars going significantly slower is begging for a high speed collision.
And as we saw last year at Indy when one of the driver's hit the wall, this particular racing formula is poor at quickly responding to accidents. I don't think I've ever seen a driver at Indy sit in a car that long before a medic came to his aid. Once the wreckage was cleared the officials failed to properly clear the track and a driver quickly crashed out a few laps later after running over carbon fiber. They didn't even have the sense to redirect the saftey car and the other cars through the pit lane during the caution period while the wreckage was cleared. THe cars were litteraly driving over carbon lap after lap when they could have been safely rerouted throught the pit lane.
And we are supposed to trust these guys?

Michelin did the right thing. This season brought new rules that required the teams to use only one set of tires all weekend. A ridiculus rule in motorsports. It compromises the racing as the drivers have to go easy all weekend even in qualifying which has degenerated into a marketing/advertising session. And during the races the driver's have to constantly be driving at 90% effort for fear of flat spotting. Its complete nonsense to spend $400M on two little cars and then dilute the racing.

I feel very bad for all the people who spent thousands to attend this race but don't blame Michelin entirely. This turned into a poker a match and the F1 rules makers were fully expecting the teams to be bluffing. They got a big surprise.
In this country with infinite laws, there could be no other outcome once the tire manufacturer stated that the tires were dangerous under full cornering load.
The directors of the Williams team were only recently fully exhonerated after a 10 year Italian criminal investigation into the death of one their drivers a 3X world champion. Those directors could well have been arressted and sent to prison once they stepped foot in Italy. I think we can learn something about from the Italians about being 100% behind the driver's safety.
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Old 06-29-2005, 09:53 AM   #18
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The issue doesn't revolve around whether the right decisions were made after it was revealed that the tires were unsafe. Michelin should have provided proper tires. Period. They didn't. Each team is required to bring two types of tires, their fast competitive ones and a harder compound set that, while not as competitive, are of a harder compound and will last. The Michelin teams didn't feel they needed to bring their back-up sets. Any argument for a chicane or some other 'solution' has a viable counter-argument. At the end of the day, last years Michelins worked fine. So what's the deal here? Perhaps I have a different consumer appreciation but I can't find anything laudable in Michelin's failure to be competent enough to produce a tire as good as last years', nor in the Michelin teams failure to find a way around THEIR problem. The axiom in the entertainment world is 'the show must go on!'. It didn't. No action after the announcement on saturday that they may not have useable tires is in any way worthy of applause. That an organization like F1 couldn't solve the problem on re-enforces the perception that fans are last on their list of priorities, and that while they want the U.S. bucks, they have nothing but distain for the U.S. race fan. You can bet this would not have happened at Imola or another European venue. The riot that would insue would be devastating. This is why I watch CHAMP car and ALMS/ Le Mans racing. A couple of years ago, Mercedes had three car flip ene-over-end at Le Mans, one in the race, and they did EVERYTHING under heaven and earth to be there at the starting line, to fufill their commitment to the race and the fans. They 'balled up' as the brits would say. Was it wise for them to run a car that was apparently flawed? Was it safe? Probably not. Accounting is safe. Gardening is safe. Racing is not. Kimi had to be forcibly held back by Ron Dennis and was in tears. He was redy to go. On his Michelins. By not, as a group, going out to race, the Michelin teams assured themselves that the point standings would not alter that much. Think about it. All the points leaders not running at the same time, and Minardi and Jordan posing no threat at all, the only net-net liability to the no-shows was Micheal getting a few points closer to being able to see the leaders. And it's not like the Ferrari's gonna get a lot faster as the year progresses. Consider that math before you 'applaud the teams' putting safety first. The only thing they kept safe was their point standing. Shame on F1!
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:11 AM   #19
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And Bruce, to offer a rejoinder to your question of how Indy and your Box are related at the tire level, the whole reason companies go racing is to develop products and technologies that make it to the street car. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.' In Michelin's premiere showcase event, F1, they missed a major design flaw rendering their teams cars' unsafe. How is that possible? The banked turn and straight is the signature part of the track, the reason they're there instead of Watkin's Glenn or some other "real' race track, yet that's only part the tires couln't handle. And this was missed by their very best engineers, the ones that get to design the 'sexy' race stuff. It HAS to make you wonder what their less-gifted street tire designers might not see. We all rember the Firestone SUV tires that had an alarming way of de-laminating when they were run under-pressure. And while user error was involved, these are regular people who aren't always attentive to their vehicles condition. Manufacturers take that into account when they make products for general use. So even with pit crews and telematry etc., Michelin could't provide a safe tire for use in a highly controlled environment like F1. What happens when an 'un-discovered' design flaw that seems to me should have been relatively obvious given that these tires were made specifically for Indy yet failed to incorporate side loads generated by banked turns...like you find at Indy...what happens when a flaw surfaces in street tires? Used by Joe Public, no pit crew, no strict adherance to user guidlines? Death and carnage, just like the Firestone tires. So I'll be saying 'Non' to Michelin for my cars.
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:19 AM   #20
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I would argue that the direct connection between a Michelin decision at Indy and the tires I buy for my Box is weak at best.

In the AGGREGATE, the overall Michelin racing program MAY impact the quality of the tire on my Box but I doubt you could prove it one way or the other.

Either way, tempest in a teapot, at least to the average tire consumer, I would wager.


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