To 'S' or not to 'S'

[cfurman]

Hello.. I am a newbie here..

here is my dilemna..

brand new 08 Boxster Limited Edition - $53000 out the door price

used 06 Boxster S - $49000

brand new 08 BMW Z4 M - $53000 out the door price...

any suggestions? the Limited Edition is such an eye catcher! and the Z4M is absolutely set on rails and pins you back in your seat in every gear.

I'm lost.. don't know what to get!!

[Jacques79]

Originally Posted by cfurman

Hello.. I am a newbie here..

here is my dilemna..

brand new 08 Boxster Limited Edition - $53000 out the door price

used 06 Boxster S - $49000

brand new 08 BMW Z4 M - $53000 out the door price...

any suggestions? the Limited Edition is such an eye catcher! and the Z4M is absolutely set on rails and pins you back in your seat in every gear.

I'm lost.. don't know what to get!!

1- 2007 Boxster S with 295HP; get one with a few more miles you'll find it for 50 000$

2- BMW M Z4 roadster: that thing is a blast. The engine is almost too powerful for the chassis, oversteer everywhere...and the noise at 7800rpms....orgasm...

[Lil bastard]

There is not a World of Difference between the 'S' and base cars. That is, the 'S' doesn't blow the base car away.

The concept car and the 1st 4 years production (55,604 units) were all base cars. If these were not up to snuff, Porsche would never have even gotten to produce the 'S'.

Stay in gear a little longer, and you have the 'S' until you reach the stratosphere on the tach anyway.

Since '00, Porsche Boxster production has been 50/50 Base/'S', so there is a satisfied market with the Base.

If you gotta have the most, go for the 'S'. The Brakes are better but the Base's brakes are more than adequate for street and occaisional track driving, the 'S' brakes are pretty much overkill. Interior appointments are better (to some). More power up top, but how often do you live there?

There is more power/torque, but the point is moot in everyday driving.

Whichever you choose, be prepared to still be blown away by 5.0 stangs, WRXs, and Vettes (not to mention the wave of Aftermarket massaged Civics, Integras, etc.). Neither of the Boxster itinerations are gonna be Pinks winners when compared to some of the other offerings out there.

At the end of the day, you're buying a singular car. Buy the one which is in the best shape for the least $$, but then, don't look back. And don't buy until you can do this.

Is the 'S' better? Yes. Is it worth the price differential? Only you can say. Drive several of both models and then decide.

If you're swayed by what others think, then game over - go for the 'S'. But, if you're looking for the most bang for your buck in a Boxster, then it's up to the individual car. A ********************ty 'S' (and there's lots of them out there) will make for a much poorer Porsche experience than a well sorted Base model.

But, research the H*ll out of the car to insure that the Boxster, any Boxster, is actually the right car for you. It isn't the right car for everyone which helps explain the flood of used ones (both Base and 'S') which are constantly on the market - these cars are not generally kept longterm. You may actually be happier with a Vette, Stang or other import, again, only you can decide.

And, take your time. The one thing the world is not short of is used Boxsters. Good Luck!

[pierre shags]

Is it okay with you to have the slowest Porsche of the last ten years? If not, get an S.

[mn box s]

This is going to piss a lot of people off so listen to the first part please! lots of great car loving great driving women out here on 986 forums and we (men) salute you. Ok there was a post saying 50/50 non-s/S models, can you find a percentage of men to women owning these and while your at it look at slk's and Z's? Ill bet you find a much larger % of women driving the base models. My assumption on this is that most women say oh it looks so cute I'd look just darling in that. That being the non S. What really got me thinking about this is when I first purchased my S. All, and I mean all, of my car buddies (and theres alot of them) called my car a girls car. A. I hate convertable's B. Boxsters are pussy C. boxsters are cute. Thats how most people (motor heads) think along with my self. Only after moding my car and giving these peeps a ride (i can drive) did I wipe off that smirk. People probably wouldnt even talk to me if I had a non-s (unmodded), not because of what I spent but because the lack of testicles. So to sum it up if you cant aford an S buy a 944T if you can get the S. So to all non-s, non-modded car owners. Just remember, its cute! Sorry if your mad at me, its not me your mad at, dont shoot the messenger. I just did for you what your friends couldn't. .... the only reason I posted this is because Im sick of reading to S or not to S, it seriously comes up once a month [no thats not a non-s joke].

[thenavarro]

I might have the best of both worlds. I've got an 01 base, that has been upgraded to a 3.2 motor. I've got the bigger motor, but the 5 speed transmission.

I bought the base and had an absolute blast, but always found myself upgrading something. Suspension, interior appointments, etc. Was forced to do the biggest upgrade when my 2.7 spun a rod bearing. At that point, the cost was the same for a 2.7 or 3.2, so I opted for the additional horses and additional torque of the 'S". Couldn't be happier with that decision, granted, I would not have switched if I didn't have to, as I didn't miss what I hadn't experienced, but now that I have the bigger motor, I wish I had it from day one. The car has a lot more torque from 3,000 - 5,500 RPM or so, and that's the range I typically drive in so its suited better for me. I have not approached the top end speed of either the 2.7 or 3.2, so I can't comment on that aspect of it.

They are both brilliantly capable of putting a smile on your face, and both have limits higher than most people will be comfortable pushing, but in my experience, and I've had both engines, the 3.2 is more fun.

Good luck in your quest,

Mike Navarro

[saaber]

Originally Posted by mn box s

Just remember, its cute!

I have had way more men ask what kind of car it is because they think it looks cool than women who think it looks cute. Also, I always get men saying/yelling "Nice Porsche" as I'm driving around because they appreciate the car. Women never do that.

Sounds to me like you and/or your friends may be overly sensitive to this issue. Do your friends drive 4x4s with big tires?

[Topless]

Originally Posted by saaber

I have had way more men ask what kind of car it is because they think it looks cool than women who think it looks cute. Also, I always get men saying/yelling "Nice Porsche" as I'm driving around because they appreciate the car. Women never do that.

Sounds to me like you and/or your friends may be overly sensitive to this issue. Do your friends drive 4x4s with big tires?

His friends drive ricers .

[rick3000]

I drive a base, and have never had any problems. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think you need to find some new friends if they wouldn't talk to you just because you bought a base, instead of an S.

In my experience, most of the guys I know drives trucks, but they have never bad mouthed my car because they all like sports cars. I just have to take them for one short drive in the base, and they want to trade in there truck for one. Then there a few guys with big 4x4's (like your friends, right?) who think there truck is way better than a sports car, and you just have to accelerate past them from a stoplight, to make them shut-up.

Honestly, most people don't even think twice about what car you are driving, and it shouldn't matter what other people think as long as you are happy.
I am happy with my car, and who cares what everyone else thinks. I am the one that has to drive it!

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

The Brakes are better but the Base's brakes are more than adequate for street and occaisional track driving, the 'S' brakes are pretty much overkill.

Boy I could not disagree more. Aside from tires, if there was only one area I could upgrade on a car it would be the brakes. The ability to brake a few feet sooner could be the difference between saying "PHEWW!!! THAT WAS CLOSE!" and a seriously bad day that can't be undone. I once read a report that said that 70% of car accidents would be avoided if a driver had just one extra second of reaction time or half a car length.

The other great investment in Pcar ownership would be to enter a few autocross events with your local Porsche Club. After a mere twelve laps on an autocross course you have become a 1000% better Porsche driver on the open road.

[RandallNeighbour]

Today, I feel as if I have S brakes on my base boxster.

I put on new cross drilled rotors and pagid pads and replaced the 104k mile, 11 year old brake lines with stainless steel ones and bled the system with ATE blue and the car has never had better braking... and they're not even seated yet.

Mark, who has ceramic brakes on his 987S was impressed and he test drove it before I did...

Perfectlap, you're right. S brakes are bigger and do stop better. However, I'd love for you to drive my base boxster with new rotors and pads and SS brake lines and tell me how it compares. I am impressed.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

Today, I feel as if I have S brakes on my base boxster.

I put on new cross drilled rotors and pagid pads and replaced the 104k mile, 11 year old brake lines with stainless steel ones and bled the system with ATE blue and the car has never had better braking... and they're not even seated yet.

Mark, who has ceramic brakes on his 987S was impressed and he test drove it before I did...

Perfectlap, you're right. S brakes are bigger and do stop better. However, I'd love for you to drive my base boxster with new rotors and pads and SS brake lines and tell me how it compares. I am impressed.

What they can do with pad material is pretty amazing. Dialing in initial bite, ultimate friction, heat resistance and dust reduction.

Ultimately, the S brakes' only real advantage is the increase in fade resistance because of the larger surface area. Otherwise, the braking of the two systems should be about comparable.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Boy I could not disagree more. Aside from tires, if there was only one area I could upgrade on a car it would be the brakes. The ability to brake a few feet sooner could be the difference between saying "PHEWW!!! THAT WAS CLOSE!" and a seriously bad day that can't be undone. I once read a report that said that 70% of car accidents would be avoided if a driver had just one extra second of reaction time or half a car length.

The other great investment in Pcar ownership would be to enter a few autocross events with your local Porsche Club. After a mere twelve laps on an autocross course you have become a 1000% better Porsche driver on the open road.

Taking your arguement to it's logical conclusion, why should anyone be even satisfied with the big Brembo 'S' brakes? Shouldn't everyone be upgrading to the PCCB ceramics for $13k? And even then, they could just as well come up that one foot short in an emergency.

So it really becomes a cost/benefit arguement, how much improvement per $ spent. To me, given the cost of the upgrade ($6k), it is not a good C/B. That is, unless you track the car, or need to make up for a feeling of inadequate brakes (which really isn't the case). I'm not saying you can't do the upgrade, if that's your thing, go for it. You can feel better, or think it's cooler, and that's OK, I'm just saying that the performance gain doesn't justify it.

But, even putting the big Brembos on a base model won't duplicate the stopping distances of the 'S' simply because to further improve brake response for the 'S' model, Porsche’s development engineers increased the transmission ratio of the brake servo by 18%, helping to apply the brakes in a shorter time and in the process reducing pedal forces. So, unless you also swap the vacuum booster, you only gain a couple feet at best on a converted Base model.

The base Boxster brakes have an average stopping distance of 119ft. vs the 'S' model's avg. of 112ft., vs the overall avg. stopping distance of all cars at an est. 185ft.. (source: http://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/vehicle/generaldriver/stoppingdistance.shtml ) . And this avg. assumes that the car is unloaded (except for the driver), has brakes in good condition, on dry, hard, approximately level stretches of highway free from loose material, in other words ideal conditions. Anything less, and the stopping distance increases. So, there are many times when (given differing circumstances) the Base car will outperform an 'S'.

So it is not at all inaccurate to classify the Base model's brakes as adequate, in fact, you can make the arguement, given that they're stopping distance is ⅔ that of an average car, that they are really more than adequate. The main advantage to the big Brembos is on the track, where repeated application of the brakes results in less fade than the single monoblocks of the Base.

You are correct that reaction time is critical to achieving the shortest stopping distance. Given an average car length of 15 ft., with either the Base or the 'S', you need to be on the brakes (@60mph) 7+ car lengths (7.4 for the 'S' vs 7.9 for the Base) before the car in front of you to assure you're not going to collide. But, you also need to factor your reaction time to this. At 60mph, your car is traveling at 88 ft./sec. With a reaction time of .75 sec. (considered avg.) you've added another 4+ car lengths (66') to the equation.

All the upgrades in the world won't improve this reaction time. Rather than spend $6k on an upgrade, most owners would be better served in improving their reaction times. If you spent 5 min./day on a reaction tester like this one for example: (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php ), you'd most likely gain much shorter stopping times than simply swapping the hardware.

[Perfectlap]

112' vs 119' is actually a greater difference than I imagined it would be (given equal reaction times). That's a much better upgrade than getting an extra 15 ponies with some intake/exhaust mods in my opinion.
My argument wasn't that the base wasn't adequate, but that you have a better option available to you and at a great value in the second hand car market.
Would I pay an extra $5-6K for better brakes? Absolutely. I consider brakes to be safety equipment. Can I afford $10K PCCB's? Let me check my stocks....err nope!
Actually Porsche have a history of running out of these before the end of a production year. So they are popular even at the price of a Kia.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

112' vs 119' is actually a greater difference than I imagined it would be (given equal reaction times). That's a much better upgrade than getting an extra 15 ponies with some intake/exhaust mods in my opinion.
My argument wasn't that the base wasn't adequate, but that you have a better option available to you and at a great value in the second hand car market.
Would I pay an extra $5-6K for better brakes? Absolutely. I consider brakes to be safety equipment. Can I afford $10K PCCB's? Let me check my stocks....err nope!
Actually Porsche have a history of running out of these before the end of a production year. So they are popular even at the price of a Kia.

But you won't get anywhere near 112' by just swapping the rotors and calipers, more like 116' or 117'. You need to do the Vac Booster and mc upgrade to come into the 112' range and in doing so, you've just added another $650 to the project.

Don't get me wrong, I believe you shouldn't have the GO without the WHOA, but not at any price, especially when the improvement is less than a car length for the $$ involved. But, I respect that others may/do have different opinions.

[JackG]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

The base Boxster brakes have an average stopping distance of 119ft. vs the 'S' model's avg. of 112ft., vs the overall avg. stopping distance of all cars at an est. 185ft.. (source: http://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/vehicle/generaldriver/stoppingdistance.shtml ) . And this avg. assumes that the car is unloaded (except for the driver), has brakes in good condition, on dry, hard, approximately level stretches of highway free from loose material, in other words ideal conditions. Anything less, and the stopping distance increases. So, there are many times when (given differing circumstances) the Base car will outperform an 'S'.

The rest of your stuff was generally good, but that paragraph above is some twisted pretzel logic. You should have written "Anything less, and the stopping distance increases for BOTH".

Otherwise, I can claim that the base takes twice as long to stop than does the S... when the S is on good, dry pavement, and the base is on sand. And saying that, of course, is meaningless, just like your last sentence.

Put them on identical surfaces, and the S outperforms the base every time. Do it repeatedly, and it's advantage grows as its resistance to fade comes into play. Comparing them in an unequal situation means nothing.

[racer_d]

It seems once again, the S/NonS debate has split the Boxster community.. Its almost as if the BS guys need to defend their purchases. In fact, it seems the BS guys are acting towards base Boxsters just like 911 owners react to boxster owners about which car is superior

That said, the passion here shows that no matter which boxster you end up buying, it will be a great car to drive!

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by JackG

The rest of your stuff was generally good, but that paragraph above is some twisted pretzel logic. You should have written "Anything less, and the stopping distance increases for BOTH".

Otherwise, I can claim that the base takes twice as long to stop than does the S... when the S is on good, dry pavement, and the base is on sand. And saying that, of course, is meaningless, just like your last sentence.

Put them on identical surfaces, and the S outperforms the base every time. Do it repeatedly, and it's advantage grows as its resistance to fade comes into play. Comparing them in an unequal situation means nothing.

Fair enough. I should have been more clear.