To 'S' or not to 'S'

[pcar-yvr]

To the 986 enthusiasts on this board:

I'm about to take the plunge into my first p-car. I've had a blast (read "perma-grin") test driving a few great boxster examples so far. BUT, I haven't spent enough miles in any one of them to uncover those little nuances you get by driving hours behind the wheel. Plus, the dorky sales guys yapping beside me hasn't helped either - but that's another story.

So....my question to those who have logged a few hours:

If you had the funds for either a 2000-S OR a newer 2002 2.7L, which do you choose?

The valuation on these two are about the same and although I'm hearing "buy the newest Porsche you can afford" - the extra performance of the 'S' is pretty attractive.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience to a newb....

[Flyer]

Same boat here.

I have poured all through the forums and taken in a lot of knowledge. Right now I have either a private sale 01' -S with 77,000k Mi. private sale with all history.

or numerous 01'-03' dealer cars with 40K miles all within my budget.

So I know exactly what is going through your mind.

Good luck shopping!

[Gary in BR]

My vote is the S simply for the extra performance.

What are the power numbers on the S and 2.7?
Is what ever the power difference is. Is that number worth getting an older car?

I have a 2.5 so I dont know allot about the 2.7 but I think there are more upgrades for the S.

Wait a few hours and I am sure there will be many people that make better arguments than I for each car.

[Kirk]

I'd vote for the S. It's not just the extra horsepower. You also get a very slick 6 speed transmission, third radiator, improved suspension, and brakes that are simply amazing. Of course I'm biased, I have a 2000 Boxster S.

[dkh]

I debated this same issue over and over in my mind too - and almost just as you have presented it. I was immediately taken in by the additional hp of the S cars I drove so I was leaning toward an S. I ran across a good deal on a 2000S - and with matching hardtop - so I snatched it up. I've been very pleased but I've read others comment that the gearing is a bit long for 250hp and that's made me wonder if the shorter gearing of the 5 speed although with less hp would have been a better combination. I would really like to drive a 2.7L again to compare. However, all these thoughts may change once I've had a chance to autocross the car - or it may confirm it. I suspect in mundane everyday driving it wouldn't have mattered much to me whether it was a 2.7 or a 3.2 but for those rare spirited drives, or on the track, or in an autocross it seemed like the 3.2 would be worth it. I'm also wondering now whether I should have tried to find a car that had the sport suspension upgrade. Either way, I know you're going to have a lot of fun with either car.

[humara]

the gearing may be a touch long, but hey, 97mph in 3rd is quite fun

[blinkwatt]

Go the S you won't regret it!

[rick3000]

It depends. If the car is going to be a daily driver, I would go with lower miles even if that means not having an S. But if it is going to be a weekend car I would spring for the S, because the high miles won't be as big a problem. It is up to you, both cars are great but if the HP is more important than almost 30k miles less on the car, go for it!

[cfurman]

Hello.. I am a newbie here..

here is my dilemna..

brand new 08 Boxster Limited Edition - $53000 out the door price

used 06 Boxster S - $49000

brand new 08 BMW Z4 M - $53000 out the door price...

any suggestions? the Limited Edition is such an eye catcher! and the Z4M is absolutely set on rails and pins you back in your seat in every gear.

I'm lost.. don't know what to get!!

[Jacques79]

Originally Posted by cfurman

Hello.. I am a newbie here..

here is my dilemna..

brand new 08 Boxster Limited Edition - $53000 out the door price

used 06 Boxster S - $49000

brand new 08 BMW Z4 M - $53000 out the door price...

any suggestions? the Limited Edition is such an eye catcher! and the Z4M is absolutely set on rails and pins you back in your seat in every gear.

I'm lost.. don't know what to get!!

1- 2007 Boxster S with 295HP; get one with a few more miles you'll find it for 50 000$

2- BMW M Z4 roadster: that thing is a blast. The engine is almost too powerful for the chassis, oversteer everywhere...and the noise at 7800rpms....orgasm...

[Lil bastard]

There is not a World of Difference between the 'S' and base cars. That is, the 'S' doesn't blow the base car away.

The concept car and the 1st 4 years production (55,604 units) were all base cars. If these were not up to snuff, Porsche would never have even gotten to produce the 'S'.

Stay in gear a little longer, and you have the 'S' until you reach the stratosphere on the tach anyway.

Since '00, Porsche Boxster production has been 50/50 Base/'S', so there is a satisfied market with the Base.

If you gotta have the most, go for the 'S'. The Brakes are better but the Base's brakes are more than adequate for street and occaisional track driving, the 'S' brakes are pretty much overkill. Interior appointments are better (to some). More power up top, but how often do you live there?

There is more power/torque, but the point is moot in everyday driving.

Whichever you choose, be prepared to still be blown away by 5.0 stangs, WRXs, and Vettes (not to mention the wave of Aftermarket massaged Civics, Integras, etc.). Neither of the Boxster itinerations are gonna be Pinks winners when compared to some of the other offerings out there.

At the end of the day, you're buying a singular car. Buy the one which is in the best shape for the least $$, but then, don't look back. And don't buy until you can do this.

Is the 'S' better? Yes. Is it worth the price differential? Only you can say. Drive several of both models and then decide.

If you're swayed by what others think, then game over - go for the 'S'. But, if you're looking for the most bang for your buck in a Boxster, then it's up to the individual car. A ********************ty 'S' (and there's lots of them out there) will make for a much poorer Porsche experience than a well sorted Base model.

But, research the H*ll out of the car to insure that the Boxster, any Boxster, is actually the right car for you. It isn't the right car for everyone which helps explain the flood of used ones (both Base and 'S') which are constantly on the market - these cars are not generally kept longterm. You may actually be happier with a Vette, Stang or other import, again, only you can decide.

And, take your time. The one thing the world is not short of is used Boxsters. Good Luck!

[pierre shags]

Is it okay with you to have the slowest Porsche of the last ten years? If not, get an S.

[mn box s]

This is going to piss a lot of people off so listen to the first part please! lots of great car loving great driving women out here on 986 forums and we (men) salute you. Ok there was a post saying 50/50 non-s/S models, can you find a percentage of men to women owning these and while your at it look at slk's and Z's? Ill bet you find a much larger % of women driving the base models. My assumption on this is that most women say oh it looks so cute I'd look just darling in that. That being the non S. What really got me thinking about this is when I first purchased my S. All, and I mean all, of my car buddies (and theres alot of them) called my car a girls car. A. I hate convertable's B. Boxsters are pussy C. boxsters are cute. Thats how most people (motor heads) think along with my self. Only after moding my car and giving these peeps a ride (i can drive) did I wipe off that smirk. People probably wouldnt even talk to me if I had a non-s (unmodded), not because of what I spent but because the lack of testicles. So to sum it up if you cant aford an S buy a 944T if you can get the S. So to all non-s, non-modded car owners. Just remember, its cute! Sorry if your mad at me, its not me your mad at, dont shoot the messenger. I just did for you what your friends couldn't. .... the only reason I posted this is because Im sick of reading to S or not to S, it seriously comes up once a month [no thats not a non-s joke].

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

The Brakes are better but the Base's brakes are more than adequate for street and occaisional track driving, the 'S' brakes are pretty much overkill.

Boy I could not disagree more. Aside from tires, if there was only one area I could upgrade on a car it would be the brakes. The ability to brake a few feet sooner could be the difference between saying "PHEWW!!! THAT WAS CLOSE!" and a seriously bad day that can't be undone. I once read a report that said that 70% of car accidents would be avoided if a driver had just one extra second of reaction time or half a car length.

The other great investment in Pcar ownership would be to enter a few autocross events with your local Porsche Club. After a mere twelve laps on an autocross course you have become a 1000% better Porsche driver on the open road.

[RandallNeighbour]

Today, I feel as if I have S brakes on my base boxster.

I put on new cross drilled rotors and pagid pads and replaced the 104k mile, 11 year old brake lines with stainless steel ones and bled the system with ATE blue and the car has never had better braking... and they're not even seated yet.

Mark, who has ceramic brakes on his 987S was impressed and he test drove it before I did...

Perfectlap, you're right. S brakes are bigger and do stop better. However, I'd love for you to drive my base boxster with new rotors and pads and SS brake lines and tell me how it compares. I am impressed.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Boy I could not disagree more. Aside from tires, if there was only one area I could upgrade on a car it would be the brakes. The ability to brake a few feet sooner could be the difference between saying "PHEWW!!! THAT WAS CLOSE!" and a seriously bad day that can't be undone. I once read a report that said that 70% of car accidents would be avoided if a driver had just one extra second of reaction time or half a car length.

The other great investment in Pcar ownership would be to enter a few autocross events with your local Porsche Club. After a mere twelve laps on an autocross course you have become a 1000% better Porsche driver on the open road.

Taking your arguement to it's logical conclusion, why should anyone be even satisfied with the big Brembo 'S' brakes? Shouldn't everyone be upgrading to the PCCB ceramics for $13k? And even then, they could just as well come up that one foot short in an emergency.

So it really becomes a cost/benefit arguement, how much improvement per $ spent. To me, given the cost of the upgrade ($6k), it is not a good C/B. That is, unless you track the car, or need to make up for a feeling of inadequate brakes (which really isn't the case). I'm not saying you can't do the upgrade, if that's your thing, go for it. You can feel better, or think it's cooler, and that's OK, I'm just saying that the performance gain doesn't justify it.

But, even putting the big Brembos on a base model won't duplicate the stopping distances of the 'S' simply because to further improve brake response for the 'S' model, Porsche’s development engineers increased the transmission ratio of the brake servo by 18%, helping to apply the brakes in a shorter time and in the process reducing pedal forces. So, unless you also swap the vacuum booster, you only gain a couple feet at best on a converted Base model.

The base Boxster brakes have an average stopping distance of 119ft. vs the 'S' model's avg. of 112ft., vs the overall avg. stopping distance of all cars at an est. 185ft.. (source: http://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/vehicle/generaldriver/stoppingdistance.shtml ) . And this avg. assumes that the car is unloaded (except for the driver), has brakes in good condition, on dry, hard, approximately level stretches of highway free from loose material, in other words ideal conditions. Anything less, and the stopping distance increases. So, there are many times when (given differing circumstances) the Base car will outperform an 'S'.

So it is not at all inaccurate to classify the Base model's brakes as adequate, in fact, you can make the arguement, given that they're stopping distance is ⅔ that of an average car, that they are really more than adequate. The main advantage to the big Brembos is on the track, where repeated application of the brakes results in less fade than the single monoblocks of the Base.

You are correct that reaction time is critical to achieving the shortest stopping distance. Given an average car length of 15 ft., with either the Base or the 'S', you need to be on the brakes (@60mph) 7+ car lengths (7.4 for the 'S' vs 7.9 for the Base) before the car in front of you to assure you're not going to collide. But, you also need to factor your reaction time to this. At 60mph, your car is traveling at 88 ft./sec. With a reaction time of .75 sec. (considered avg.) you've added another 4+ car lengths (66') to the equation.

All the upgrades in the world won't improve this reaction time. Rather than spend $6k on an upgrade, most owners would be better served in improving their reaction times. If you spent 5 min./day on a reaction tester like this one for example: (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php ), you'd most likely gain much shorter stopping times than simply swapping the hardware.