Porsche Survival

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by wvboxst3r

...He feels that the new Boxster will be on a six month wait or more once they arrive.

I'll believe this when is see it. I have a friend that ordered his 991 in early Jan, it was built on Feb 12th and is waiting to get on a boat for a pre-March 15th delivery. Sounds like dealer talk to me . Ten days ago when Paramount had the unveiling of the 991 I asked the owner about the 981, he said he didn't have much info on it, I asked if i can get on the list to order one (I was just bull ****************ting) but he said I don't know when I can start ordering so I don't have a list yet.

The 991 was being driving in Europe long before it could be ordered here. I'm wondering if Boxster will be the same. If not, in that case I could see orders to take delivery could be long.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by WhipE350

Just a thought...are the advances in technology so bad? Cars are safer, faster, handle better, likely will be more reliable and maybe last longer.

Interesting that "more fun" didn't make your list... That's the problem with "technology"

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Deserion

The new 991 is no heavier than the outgoing 993 was in 1998. So I'm not exactly seeing where the "getting heavier" part is coming into play. Sure, the car is bigger and more powerful, but weighs about the same as the last of the aircooleds did. That's pretty amazing.

It makes very, very good sense for Porsche to offer the Cayenne and Panamera. By having higher volume vehicles, it allows them to have profits to still continue their business of producing sportscars. To me, if Porsche kept with the 911 and Boxster only, they might not be doing very well at all, if they would still exist.

3200 pounds is a heavy car, In 1995 or in 1012.

The 991 is about 300 pounds heavier than the 996, by the way.

[papasmurf]

Cars have not been lighter in a long time (since the 80's). All the early 90's sports cars (300zx, supra, 3000gt/stealth, vette, viper) were 3000+ lbs and many of them were much closer to 3500. The nsx and a few ferrari's were some of the few that were around the 3000 lb mark. I am a huge advocate for cars getting lighter (~2800) as I think it would do wonders for fuel economy and their would be no need for cars to have 400+ hp to have the performance they have today but it is not going to happen until people are content to do without navigation, backup cameras, A/C in the seats and glovebox, etc that they have come to expect of cars at this price point. When you can get many of those items on a kia or hyundai, it makes no sense not to have them on a car that costs 4-5 times as much. I am not fond of the trend of the 911 and boxster getting larger with each generation but will live with it as long as the weight stays the same. Porsche still builds some of the lightest cars on the road. Just check out the weight of a lamborghini murcielago or ferrari 599....they are anything but light weight and have a lot more exotic materials in them than any porsche currently in production. Porsche is doing what it has to do to sell cars....no one will buy a stripped down 911 or boxster in volume numbers...at least not at the prices they are selling at now. If you lower the price and the sales go up, then you anger those that think you are cheapening the brand. No matter what they do, there are going to be those that are upset. They are simply catering to the demand and marketplace. The lotus elise is a great lightweight car stripped down to the basics (like you suggest porsche should move towards again) but they are not exactly flying off the showroom floor and on every street corner are they?

[blue2000s]

How are the Miata, S2000, Elise/Exige, and aformentioned Toybaru twins 2600 pounds and less? Magic? Come on.

[papasmurf]

The miata is steadily increasing in size and weight with each generation just like about every car out there. (a 3rd gen MX-5 is I am guessing about 4-500 lbs more than a first gen). The elise is usually not optioned with much more than a kit car (A/C, radio, sound proofing, carpet, etc.) and the S2000 is according to figures I have seen closer to 2800-2900 lbs. No doubt light but it is a bit unfair to compare any of these two seat only cars to a newer model 911 as the porsche is going to have a lot more standard features (whether you want them or not), larger tires/wheels, a back seat, etc. The toyota and suburu are not in production yet so I am not sure what the final weight might be. I agree with you that I would love to see porsche make the cars smaller (I wish the boxster was the size of an mx-5) and lighter but I just do not see it happening soon with the way people want the combination of a sports car and GT in one. Ferrari can cater to a very narrow clientele that drives their cars primarily on weekends and shorts trips...porsche's cars are much more likely to be driven as a daily driver and as such people demand more content for their money. The original comparison of the suburu and toyota is a bit of a stretch IMO as I do not think these cars are likely to be cross shopped with porsche's present offerings and appeal to completely different types of people.

[Deserion]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

3200 pounds is a heavy car, In 1995 or in 1012.

The 991 is about 300 pounds heavier than the 996, by the way.

Try again, on both parts.

The 2012 991 weighs 3,042lbs.
The 2011 997 weighs 3,075lbs.
The 1999 996 weighs 2,901lbs.
The 1998 993 weighs 3,064lbs.

So no, it's not 300lbs. heavier.

And for reference, a 1992 964 weighs 3,031lbs. Wow, so the brand-new 911 weighs in at 11lbs. more than one from 20 years ago, while being larger, more powerful, and more livable, and somehow that's "heavy"?

[Ghostrider 310]

I had thought I read in Excellence that the new model was a bit lighter than the outgoing model. The width kind of makes it look heavy, I'm sure the new 911 is plenty fun. What I dislike the most about it is the way the front turn signals and running lights integrate with the front end. I'm no fan of the obtuse angled signals and how they look integrated with the intakes.

[blue2000s]

Manufacturer
Porsche

Also called

Porsche 911
Porsche Carrera

Production
2011-

Assembly
Stuttgart, Germany

Predecessor
Porsche 997

Body style
2-door coupe
2-door convertible

Layout
Rear engine, rear wheel drive / all wheel drive

Engine
3.4 L H6
3.8 L H6

Transmission
7-speed manual
7-speed PDK

Wheelbase
2,450 millimetres (96.5 in)

Length
4,490 millimetres (176.8 in)

Curb weight
1,470 kilograms (3,250 lb)
-----------------------------------------------

Manufacturer
Porsche

Also called
Porsche 911
Porsche Carrera

Production
1997-2005

Assembly
Stuttgart, Germany

Predecessor
Porsche 993

Successor
Porsche 997

Body style
2-door coupe
2-door convertible

Layout
RR/R4 layout

Engine
3.4 L H6
3.6 L H6

Transmission
5-speed automatic
6-speed manual

Wheelbase
92.6 in (2,352 mm)

Length
174.5 in (4,432 mm)
4S & Turbo: 174.6 in (4,435 mm)

Width
1999-2001: 69.5 in (1,765 mm)
2002-04: 69.7 in (1,770 mm)
4S & Turbo: 72.0 in (1,829 mm)

Height
51.4 in (1,306 mm)
4S & Turbo: 51.0 in (1,295 mm)
40th Anniversary Coupe: 50.2 in (1,275 mm)
GT2: 50.2 in (1,275 mm)

Curb weight
2,920 lb (1,320 kg)

Designer
Harm Lagaay

-------------------------------------------------------

Where is the 991 3000 lbs?

[Deserion]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Where is the 991 3000 lbs?

Porsche USA



The 1455kg figure is per European guidelines, which includes a 75kg driver. Base weight is 1380kg, 3042lbs.

[grantsfo]

Reports from end of 2011

Porsche – Down 6.6 Percent

Porsche reported its second straight month in a row with a downturn in year-over-year sales. This month Porsche’s sole gainer was the Cayenne with 1085 sold compared to the 997 sold last November. Only 167 Boxsters and Caymans, and 608 Panameras were sold last month. The 911 is predictably down as well, with only 395 sold last month as many hold out for the 991, scheduled to hit dealerships early next year.



While I agree that Porsche as a corporation is doing the right thing to survive, affordable Porsche sports cars have not survived. The company in order to survive has sold its soul. Its not same company it was from 50s to about mid 70's.

Frankly I'm more interested in companies like these that seem to be surviving just fine making innovative affordable sports/racing cars for driving enthusiasts.

What's New
Caterham Cars - Designed for racing, built for living
Westfield Sportscars - The Ultimate Driving Experience - Drifting and Racing Experiences
Welcome to Ariel Atom | Ariel Atom USA

Remember when Porsche made fun affordable sports racing cars? They sold these for $7250 in 1964 - About $50K in 2012 dollars.



Porsche has abandonded the people who made the company successful for decades to put SUV's in the hands of wealthy people around the world.

Occupy Zuffenhausen!

[pothole]

I have plenty of issues with the 991, but weight isn't one of them. Porsche has done stunning, stunning thing regards keeping the weight under control.

As a reference point, something like an Aston V8 Vantage which is actually shorter in length and height, if a little wider, than the new 991, offers roughly similar power and it all-aluminium is about 300kg heavier than the 991.

It's bonkers to criticise the 991 based on weight. It's one of the new model's great achievements.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Deserion

Porsche USA



The 1455kg figure is per European guidelines, which includes a 75kg driver. Base weight is 1380kg, 3042lbs.

2012 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport Coupe vs. 2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S Specs - Motor Trend

Maybe the S has 200 pounds on the 3.4? I've yet to see the 3.4 tested.

[blue2000s]

This also suggests a 300 lb difference between the 996 and 991

Car and Driver Blog » Porsche 911 Generations: The Legend Grows

Fat car.

[Pilot2519j]

The new Boxster looks real nice but I am thinking that it will set you back 60-70 K. That's a lot of money, my strategy would be to buy a demo or a car with a few miles let the original owner take the depriciation. The 981 looks totally new and looks like everything has been redone. I own a 2003S and I tell you I just love the car and it is as exciting as it was the first day. Sure I would love to have more horsepower but who doesn't. My car is still plenty quick and since I like spirited driving and not racing I enjoy the performance of the car. As a matter of fact I just updated the interior with new leather. Black with red stitching the car looks positively new. When I retire and move to NC I might consider a 911 so I can take my grand children in the backseat. Otherwise I am still keeping this car.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

This also suggests a 300 lb difference between the 996 and 991

Car and Driver Blog » Porsche 911 Generations: The Legend Grows

Fat car.

Ummm, that article was written in November last year and also states the weights for the 991 are estimates...which, I need hardly point out, turned out to be wrong. It puts the bottom estimate at 3250lb or 1,475kg.

In fact, the DIN weight for the new 3.4 is 1,380kg. Figure for the 996 3.4 was 1,320kg,so less than 150lb difference. Given how much bigger and more sophisticated the 991 is, that's very impressive.

Not to say I wouldn't prefer the 991 smaller and lighter. I would. But it's complete nonsense to say the 991 is fat. As I stated above, it's incredibly light for its size and power and makes some of if not most of the competition look a bit ludicrous.

P.S. Can't believe you guys still measure this **************** in lbs and ins. Mental.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pothole

Ummm, that article was written in November last year and also states the weights for the 991 are estimates...which, I need hardly point out, turned out to be wrong. It puts the bottom estimate at 3250lb or 1,475kg.

In fact, the DIN weight for the new 3.4 is 1,380kg. Figure for the 996 3.4 was 1,320kg,so less than 150lb difference. Given how much bigger and more sophisticated the 991 is, that's very impressive.

Not to say I wouldn't prefer the 991 smaller and lighter. I would. But it's complete nonsense to say the 991 is fat. As I stated above, it's incredibly light for its size and power and makes some of if not most of the competition look a bit ludicrous.

P.S. Can't believe you guys still measure this **************** in lbs and ins. Mental.

...and then the road tests showed they were on with the estimate

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2012-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2013-nissan-gt-r-vs-2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-comparison-test-car-and-driver2012-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2013-nissan-gt-r-vs-2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-febuary2012.pdf

The nice thing about the history article is that it shows how, just like people, the 911 gets bigger and heavier as it ages. When the Corvette is lighter than your sports car, it should be an indication that there's a problem.

So back to the original point of the post, IMO, Porsche no longer makes special cars, they no longer make unique cars, and they are not any more robust than others. The things that used to make Porsche's different no longer exist. They are now a name on a luxury line up of GTs and Trucks. The relevance to this sports car fan is gone.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

...and then the road tests showed they were on with the estimate

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2012-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2013-nissan-gt-r-vs-2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-comparison-test-car-and-driver2012-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2013-nissan-gt-r-vs-2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-febuary2012.pdf

The nice thing about the history article is that it shows how, just like people, the 911 gets bigger and heavier as it ages. When the Corvette is lighter than your sports car, it should be an indication that there's a problem.

So back to the original point of the post, IMO, Porsche no longer makes special cars, they no longer make unique cars, and they are not any more robust than others. The things that used to make Porsche's different no longer exist. They are now a name on a luxury line up of GTs and Trucks. The relevance to this sports car fan is gone.

The estimated a range of weights starting at 3,250 and the C&D test car with $25k's worth of options including PDK is, I would argue, pretty much as heavy as any 991 Carrera S is going to be.

The 911 has gotten bigger over the years, but I'd say you'd have to characterise the weight as now fluctuating rather than continually rising. The weight fell in the transition from 993 to 996, it went up with the 997 and now it's a bit lower again with the 991. I'd say that, overall, you'd have to characterise is as pretty flat since the 964 came out in 1989, which is very unusual and a real achievement on Porsche's behalf.

I still don't like how big the 991 is, I don't like the electric rack,t he stupid 7-speed manual and the fact that you can't have simple passive sports suspension from the factory. But like I keep saying, the one thing you can't really criticise the 991 for is being too fat.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pothole

The estimated a range of weights starting at 3,250 and the C&D test car with $25k's worth of options including PDK is, I would argue, pretty much as heavy as any 991 Carrera S is going to be.

The 911 has gotten bigger over the years, but I'd say you'd have to characterise the weight as now fluctuating rather than continually rising. The weight fell in the transition from 993 to 996, it went up with the 997 and now it's a bit lower again with the 991. I'd say that, overall, you'd have to characterise is as pretty flat since the 964 came out in 1989, which is very unusual and a real achievement on Porsche's behalf.

I still don't like how big the 991 is, I don't like the electric rack,t he stupid 7-speed manual and the fact that you can't have simple passive sports suspension from the factory. But like I keep saying, the one thing you can't really criticise the 991 for is being too fat.

We can keep going back and forth on the curb weight of the car, I can keep finding more sources that say it's in the 3200 pound range, but what's the point of that? The 911 gets bigger and let's just say somewhat consistantly heavier with every generation and in my opinion, it hasn't been a sports car in a long time. It's too fat in weight and girth and the other "sports car" platform isn't far behind.

It doesn't sound like Porsche is interested in introducing a product in a sub-Boxster size or price point, and for this reason more than any, the company is irrelevant to me.

[pothole]

Sorry, we keep going back and forth because the numbers just don't support your position that the 991 is overweight. Even if it is 3200 pounds minimum, that's less than 10 per cent heavier than the 964 in 1989.

Having read a few of your posts, I know on most matters regards sports cars and Porsche we have very similar opinions. But on this one, you've been smoking something. "Somewhat consistently heavier with every generation"? What does than mean?

Fact: the 996 was lighter than the 993.
Fact: Porsche claims the 991 is lighter than the 997.

The weight of the 991 is something it should be praised for, not criticised. The size and other aspects, are another matter.

And I agree, I'd love to see them making a smaller sports car. Something not too much over 1,000kg with a naturally aspirated flat six would be my preference. Not going to happen, obviously.