Porsche Survival

[stephen wilson]

Wow, that's the oddest thing I've ever heard. You want a sportscar without grip???? It does sound like you want a vintage car. You could just put the cheapest narrow tires you can find on it, that should kill your grip.

[blue2000s]

Yup, a tossible car usually has lower grip and narrower tires. It lends to a more direct steering system, better road feel and more attainable limits. It's part of the reason that stock miatas and mr2s are so much fun.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

Wow, that's the oddest thing I've ever heard. You want a sportscar without grip???? It does sound like you want a vintage car. You could just put the cheapest narrow tires you can find on it, that should kill your grip.

I didn't say I wanted no grip. I said I wanted lower grip than is typical with, say, a Boxster, which has too much grip, especially on the rear axle. A little less grip would allow you to get the rear of the car moving around more easily and, as blue200s says, improves the steering, gives you better road feel. Narrower tyres can actually make a car feel more positive on turn in too. Fat tyres give you more grip, but they can make a car feel dull witted, too.

The problem with, say, throwing really ****************ty tyres on the rear axle is that you don't just loose grip. There's the structure of the tyre too - if the sidewall is very weak, for instance, that's not going to be nice for handling.

The GT-86 / BRZ has thin tyres specifically so that you can slide the thing at sane speeds and sane lateral loads. I doubt many people care. Only people who love proper driver's cars will think that's a good idea, and there are hardly any of those.

[fivepointnine]

I love a good drivers car, but I would much rather grip than drift! I love taking on ramps at stupid speeds and feeling the lateral G-loads....it would just be unsafe to be drifting around said on-ramp!

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

I love a good drivers car, but I would much rather grip than drift! I love taking on ramps at stupid speeds and feeling the lateral G-loads....it would just be unsafe to be drifting around said on-ramp!

Now imagine getting that same feeling going 30 or 40 mph. Where you aren't at risk of killing yourself or someone else. That's the difference.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pothole

The GT-86 / BRZ has thin tyres specifically so that you can slide the thing at sane speeds and sane lateral loads. I doubt many people care. Only people who love proper driver's cars will think that's a good idea, and there are hardly any of those.

Toyota says they are Prius tires. Which is awesome, someone knows what they're doing over there.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

I love a good drivers car, but I would much rather grip than drift! I love taking on ramps at stupid speeds and feeling the lateral G-loads....it would just be unsafe to be drifting around said on-ramp!

To be honest, good driver's cars aren't about taking ramps at high speeds. There are plenty of **************** modern cars with very high grip levels that can do it.

But even with much more narrow tyres, you could still very probably take the ramps at the speeds you are now. You're probably nowhere near the limit with your massive boots.

The narrow 225s the 16-inch 986 wheels have would be good, it's just a shame the 16s look so crap...

[stephen wilson]

Well, the Boxster is pretty much the benchmark for steering feel, so I'm not sure what your trying to improve on. You guys really sound like you should be Elise owners.

[pothole]

Boxster's steering feel is over rated. It's good, but it's not that good. And it's over assisted. My old E36 (admittedly tweaked with a Z3 rack and nice geo) had as good if not marginally nicer steering than a 986.

Something like a 968 has much nicer steering than a Boxster, too. I haven't driven a 964, but I bet it kills the Box for steering loveliness.

[fivepointnine]

best steering feel of any car I have ever drove was my 1983 944 with non-power steering, it felt amazing!

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

best steering feel of any car I have ever drove was my 1983 944 with non-power steering, it felt amazing!

Agreed, 944s have fantastic manual racks. Much better than the Boxster.

[pothole]

Yeah, I assume 944s are similar to 968s. 968s have gorgeous steering. Assisted, admittedly, but still nice and weighty.

[cbbepop]

ban chandarpool he's just thread spamming and advertising

[stephen wilson]

I guess I can see your point, I had a '94 Integra that was actually very fun. Good suspension, but small tires and soft springs, so you really felt the car respond to your inputs. I just don't see why Porsche would ever build their version of this, or a Miata. The want to be the pinnacle of performance, not mediocre and affordable. The Elise wouldn't even fit your needs, it may be light, with smaller tires, but it still has 1G cornering capability. You just can't turn back time and produce a "new" vintage car. can you even buy a car now with wind-up windows?

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

I guess I can see your point, I had a '94 Integra that was actually very fun. Good suspension, but small tires and soft springs, so you really felt the car respond to your inputs. I just don't see why Porsche would ever build their version of this, or a Miata. The want to be the pinnacle of performance, not mediocre and affordable. The Elise wouldn't even fit your needs, it may be light, with smaller tires, but it still has 1G cornering capability. You just can't turn back time and produce a "new" vintage car. can you even buy a car now with wind-up windows?

Yes, the Elise can be ordered with wind-up windows, still sold in Europe. They're beautiful little aluminum pieces.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-jkl/Lotus-Elise-72-Interior.jpg

Like was mentioned above, the BRZ/FR-S come with lower adhesion tires.

The miata has a more sophisticated suspension system than the 911 and Boxster. There's nothing mediocre about the Miata besides it's storage space.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

There's nothing mediocre about the Miata. Besides it's storage space.

As an 11-year owner of Miatas (94-'04)and lover of same, I have to disagree. While the Miata can be great fun and was a pretty good handler when it came out in '89, the world moved forward and Mazda stayed still in both power and handling for 15 years, then made a small jump forward in each 7 years ago. As a result, recent comparos like the annual C&D Lightning Lap reveal the Miata's lap times to be slower than many of the front-drive economy sedans that have been tested. Yes, the car is still fun, like an MG-TD can be fun, but in any objective sense it has slipped to merely mediocre.

EDIT: I just saw your edited statement about suspension sophistication. Yes, theoretically the double-wishbone design of all generations of Miata has characteristics that make it better than strut-type suspensions. But execution is even more important than theory, and in this regard, at least U.S.-spec Miatas have too many compromised features to qualify as well-executed. (Of course, modified suspensions serve to reveal what a good platform the Miata offers, but any car can be modified, including Porsches. I'm talking what you get at the dealer.)

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by fullthrottle52

Just thought I would start a conversation to get some thoughts about the viability of Porsche continuing as a car company... Who is the NEW Boxster customer?

Just a concerned owner.

This may sound like sacrilage but the Boxster and even Carrera are almost irrelvant for Porsche going forward. Put it this way if Porsche decided to drop the Carrera and Boxster they are still a perfectly viable and profitable company with the Panamera, Cayenne and whatever new mini-Cayenne or coupe Panamera models they were to come out with. Not a single rear or mid-engined offering on offer and they'd sell the brand to emerging market and U.S. buyers at higher numbers than at any point in their history.

At this point selling Boxsters is more like a favor. And selling a minimalist sports coupe (not into exotic money territory) is not even in the plan anymore. A 991S with a sticker well into the six figures is not in the budget for many traditional Porsche buyers. THey are going after the deep deep pocket luxury crowd as the backbone of their sales.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

As an 11-year owner of Miatas (94-'04)and lover of same, I have to disagree. While the Miata can be great fun and was a pretty good handler when it came out in '89, the world moved forward and Mazda stayed still in both power and handling for 15 years, then made a small jump forward in each 7 years ago. As a result, recent comparos like the annual C&D Lightning Lap reveal the Miata's lap times to be slower than many of the front-drive economy sedans that have been tested. Yes, the car is still fun, like an MG-TD can be fun, but in any objective sense it has slipped to merely mediocre.

EDIT: I just saw your edited statement about suspension sophistication. Yes, theoretically the double-wishbone design of all generations of Miata has characteristics that make it better than strut-type suspensions. But execution is even more important than theory, and in this regard, at least U.S.-spec Miatas have too many compromised features to qualify as well-executed. (Of course, modified suspensions serve to reveal what a good platform the Miata offers, but any car can be modified, including Porsches. I'm talking what you get at the dealer.)

OK, the Miata's power is mediocre if you think you need to be down the 1/4 mile in less than 14 seconds for a car to be fun. The whole point is that lap times don't matter in the real world.

As far as suspension execution, the Miata may be a little soft stock, but a car that's got some very elemental suspension modifications can be hard to beat for fun to drive.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

OK, the Miata's power is mediocre if you think you need to be down the 1/4 mile in less than 14 seconds for a car to be fun.

Wow, is that REALLY what you got out of my comments?

But since you bring it up, 1/4 mile times are yet another proof of the Miata's mediocrity. It has mediocre lap times on any track, mediocre acceleration times over any distance, and mediocre fuel mileage given its tiny size, weight, and performance. On the other hand, it can be enormously fun, especially with suspension upgrades (and even more so with a solid turbo setup, but I digress.) Any way you slice it, that fun is being had in a mediocre vehicle.

[stephen wilson]

I primarily meant mediocre in the sense of ultimate cornering grip, which I believe is accurate, and what you are looking for.