read this please

[teacher]

I was intially responding to a blown engine issue, but it make me think, so I had to post this, in good faith to all faithful Porsche owners, whether Boxster or Carrera or otherwise:

About the blown engine and replacement issue posted by another member: okay, I'll admit that I feel that I did well with my purchase, and I did have all of my work done with the dealer, whether covered under warranty or not, but I really think Porsche must step up to the plate and cover these issues, (blown engine, RMS, etc.) regardless of age of vehicle or miles (and ten years coverage seems fair). I have not had a blown engine, luckily, but I did have an RMS problem. But again, blown engines and RMS leaks, through no fault of the driver, is unfair business practice.
Again, I think about the issues that are faced with buying a Porsche and maintaining it, and I'm glad that I didn't pay over $80,000 and beyond for this type of car, but at some point, a line must be drawn in the sand, like class action lawsuit. I think the only reason why people don't unite is because many people do have money and say "just fix it." Am I right? I'm just saying, they will nickel and dime you because of the image of owning the car. But if people stood up and said "Hey! what the...!" then there would be response.
We are a forum that discusses issues that can and do cost us great amounts of money, myself included. We should petition Porsche based on our power of buying or not buying their latest cars.
But it takes those that have money as well: don't agree just to agree, question their billing, don't accept "it's around $3000 or $15,000." Honestly, I've owned my 2001 Boxster for four years now and I did pay the prices for all, I can go on, but I gladly accepted it because they are the dealer and they are supposed to know their stuff...so why milk us for every penny? Fair is fair, image is everything, to a point, but principle of the exchange of money is paramount.
Right now, my car is running fine, but I know the plight of those who have this car and find that personal service and satisfaction has become a facade. If everyone complained, on a sheet of paper (maybe here) about the issues they face (and we don't know how widespread any issue is), but even if we did, we could forward that to Porsche and tell them that we mean business as the consumer, who buys and attributes trust to their cars.
I would like any thoughts on this

P.S. this post is not attributed to any one poster, nor is it implied by any one consumer. Additionally, this is not a "flame" to denigrate Porsche's implied consent of warrantability, such that the seller maintains above and beyond standard of care in selling such and warranting such vehicles that are defective as per any warranty of purpose and reasonable usage and care upon the vehicle.

We really want to help Porsche owners to truly "enjoy their car" as they say after work is done. The question is: "Can we?"

[Brucelee]

Sadly, I would conclude that like most or all German car makers, they care not a whit about the long term quality of their products.

I wish I were wrong.

Having said that, I love the way the Box looks and drives

[blue2000s]

I really believe in buyer beware and don't buy something that you can't afford. I'm happy to know that if something goes wrong with my car, I have a Jake Raby rebuild/upgrade waiting for me. I'll happily pay the $17k for the power and reliability it affords.

Having said that, there's definitely something to be said for standing behind your product. It's what keeps you in business. Continue to disappoint customers and you loose them.

Here's my suggestion, post the customer service address of PCNA and draft a form letter stating pretty much what you have above. Anyone who wants to to print out, sign, and send it to Porsche can. Maybe the deaf ear will put in a hearing aid.

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Sadly, I would conclude that like most or all German car makers, they care not a whit about the long term quality of their products.

I wish I were wrong.

Having said that, I love the way the Box looks and drives

BL you really think that? I have read countless issues of Excellence with high mileage rebuilt 911 cars in them. It seems like the sleeved, water cooled flat sixes started the problem. In a recent issue, they spoke about the new 911 engine having reduced rotational mass and weight, they ditched the intermediate shaft, which I think is the true culprit. I worked at Kodak, I have seen first hand that the "bleeding edge" of Technology always spawns problems and mods. It is also true that exotic sports cars are just that, I don't know what the Achilles heels are of Lambos but I have read many a Ferrari Halloween horror story. Having typed all this, I'll still be pissed if my 29,450 2.5 motor doesn't make 100K.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by EE3racing

BL you really think that? I have read countless issues of Excellence with high mileage rebuilt 911 cars in them. It seems like the sleeved, water cooled flat sixes started the problem. In a recent issue, they spoke about the new 911 engine having reduced rotational mass and weight, they ditched the intermediate shaft, which I think is the true culprit. I worked at Kodak, I have seen first hand that the "bleeding edge" of Technology always spawns problems and mods. It is also true that exotic sports cars are just that, I don't know what the Achilles heels are of Lambos but I have read many a Ferrari Halloween horror story. Having typed all this, I'll still be pissed if my 29,450 2.5 motor doesn't make 100K.

Porsche created the liquid cooled flat 6 in 1997. Thats 12 years to get it right????? RMS, IMS etc.

I could go on but I have no respect for a company that treats its customers as lab rats. I don't see BMW as terribly different, although their engines seem to hold up. Not so the auto trans.

Again, I love the engineering, handling, performance and looks of the Box. I hate that the company seems to be indifferent to their cars breaking and attendant costs.

IMHO.

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Porsche created the liquid cooled flat 6 in 1997. Thats 12 years to get it right????? RMS, IMS etc.

I could go on but I have no respect for a company that treats its customers as lab rats. I don't see BMW as terribly different, although their engines seem to hold up. Not so the auto trans.

Again, I love the engineering, handling, performance and looks of the Box. I hate that the company seems to be indifferent to their cars breaking and attendant costs.

IMHO.

I'll give you this, the dealerships are awful, meanwhile, the Saab dealer smootches my dad's behind.

[Jaxonalden]

United we stand, divided we fall and they will continue to ignore the problem.

I totally disagree with Blue2000S's initial statement of;

"I really believe in buyer beware and don't buy something that you can't afford.(WTF does that mean? If I can't afford to replace my $15K engine in 30K miles means I can't afford it? Point is, I shouldn't have to replace it.) I'm happy to know that if something goes wrong with my car, I have a Jake Raby rebuild/upgrade waiting for me. I'll happily pay the $17k for the power and reliability it affords."

Do you have so much money that you can afford to have a company ignore a known problem and pay for the fix yourself? I'm all for the class action, with the PCA and this forum we should be able pool all the evidence needed to prove the flaws in the engine design.

[roadracer311]

Lawsuit? really?

To me, trying to get a free warranty put in place retroactively is like making a deal (buying the car for a given price, dealer or private party) and then trying to change the terms of the deal after the deal is done.

As others have said... not much has changed with these motors in 10 years. Anyone with access to the internet should know the risks involved in buying a Porsche.

It's a (mostly) free market economy. We all have the option of voting with our wallets. If Porsche feels that they are losing sales due to a bad reputation for reliability, then they will have to address reliability (sounds like they may have on the new models with no IMS). The existing Porsches should be (and for the most part, are) priced according to the risk involved and the maintenance cost involved.

The solution is to say "it's ok I'll own one anyway" suck it up and own one
or "it's not ok, this thing is a time bomb" and don't own one

Porsche never promised they would be like other cars and get >100k miles.
We all had access to the internet before making our purchases. (unless you bought a brand new one when they first came out).

Originally Posted by roadracer311

Lawsuit? really?

To me, trying to get a free warranty put in place retroactively is like making a deal (buying the car for a given price, dealer or private party) and then trying to change the terms of the deal after the deal is done.

As others have said... not much has changed with these motors in 10 years. Anyone with access to the internet should know the risks involved in buying a Porsche.

It's a (mostly) free market economy. We all have the option of voting with our wallets. If Porsche feels that they are losing sales due to a bad reputation for reliability, then they will have to address reliability (sounds like they may have on the new models with no IMS). The existing Porsches should be (and for the most part, are) priced according to the risk involved and the maintenance cost involved.

The solution is to say "it's ok I'll own one anyway" suck it up and own one
or "it's not ok, this thing is a time bomb" and don't own one

Porsche never promised they would be like other cars and get >100k miles.
We all had access to the internet before making our purchases. (unless you bought a brand new one when they first came out).

Given the intensive almost cult like attention these cars receive, 100K on the odometer should be a minimum expectation. I drove my 944 to 105K , it had very expensive work done to it along the way but it was still a solid engine when I sold it.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

United we stand, divided we fall and they will continue to ignore the problem.

I totally disagree with Blue2000S's initial statement of;

"I really believe in buyer beware and don't buy something that you can't afford.(WTF does that mean? If I can't afford to replace my $15K engine in 30K miles means I can't afford it? Point is, I shouldn't have to replace it.) I'm happy to know that if something goes wrong with my car, I have a Jake Raby rebuild/upgrade waiting for me. I'll happily pay the $17k for the power and reliability it affords."

Do you have so much money that you can afford to have a company ignore a known problem and pay for the fix yourself? I'm all for the class action, with the PCA and this forum we should be able pool all the evidence needed to prove the flaws in the engine design.

Just like RoadRacer311 says, if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware. Right now, you know how much it costs to replace the engine so you know how much you need to be ready for the rainy day if it comes. If you're unwilling or unable to replace the engine or let the car sit with a dead engine, sell it.

The warranty on the car is the only length of time or mileage Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own.

Capitalism folks, it's not without risks.

[shaman1204]

Originally Posted by EE3racing

I'll give you this, the dealerships are awful, meanwhile, the Saab dealer smootches my dad's behind.

I think the dealerships have a lot to do with the problem. Example: I took my 01 in for the "clunk over rough surfaces" problem and they found three other problems. Fine and good, but they couldn't find the source of the clunking noise. After researching here and other forums I told them to check the rear control arms. Alas! It's the control arms. Problem not solved. Clunk still there.

A month or two ago my alternator took a crap, car went to an indy mechanic and they brought up the clunking noise on their own. They tried to pin-point it and told me basically it is probably some worn out bushings but the warranty company won't replace them if they are not visibly cracked/split, etc.

Could a Porsche mechanic not know this? Don't tell me they know nothing of this problem. If you search this forum and others it is a very common problem. Perhaps it was just the one dealership that I dealt with but it was the first and last time my car feels the hands of a "Certified Porsche Mechanic."

[Jaxonalden]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Just like RoadRacer311 says, if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware. Right now, you know how much it costs to replace the engine so you know how much you need to be ready for the rainy day if it comes. If you're unwilling or unable to replace the engine or let the car sit with a dead engine, sell it.

The warranty on the car is the only length of time or mileage Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own.

Capitalism folks, it's not without risks.

Listen, there's a difference in a manufacturers warranty of the product and expected product life. The MTBF (mean time between failures) of these engine were and are know to the manufacture. The failure numbers are even higher than we know counting the ROW models. You say "Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own." Known mechanical failures should be disclosed to the consumer and then let the consumer make the choice in purchasing or not. For you to state "if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware" is bull****************. You must be some bean counter in your profession. These car should have had a sticker on the window that stated;
" Purchase of this automobile may require the buyer to replace or rebuild the engine at any time because of a known defect that has not and will not be addressed."
I think I and probably a couple other Boxster owners would have thought twice about purchasing one with this simple warning.

[boxster_s_boy_34]

Alright boys, here's the deal, lets all use a little common sense here. You can only build something so much one way or so much another way before you sacrafice. Porsches are a performance vehicle, and we should be glad that they do what they do with out the often engine "freshening" that Ferrari owners have to deal with. Take for example the Honda Civic, gutless wonder, 1,000,000 mile engine (a little exaggerated but you see where I'm going with this). The fact that these vehicles perform the way that they do and are less expensive to maintain than say a Viper that is actually a domestic car is pretty awesome!

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Listen, there's a difference in a manufacturers warranty of the product and expected product life. The MTBF (mean time between failures) of these engine were and are know to the manufacture. The failure numbers are even higher than we know counting the ROW models. You say "Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own." Known mechanical failures should be disclosed to the consumer and then let the consumer make the choice in purchasing or not. For you to state "if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware" is bull****************. You must be some bean counter in your profession. These car should have had a sticker on the window that stated;
" Purchase of this automobile may require the buyer to replace or rebuild the engine at any time because of a known defect that has not and will not be addressed."
I think I and probably a couple other Boxster owners would have thought twice about purchasing one with this simple warning.

As we all know, there's no data on the frequency of these engine failures. Is it 5% or 25%? It's easy to panic.

Porsche is under absolutely no legal obligation to fix an engine that's out of warranty, heck, they don't even need to offer a warranty at all legally. Do you see any kind of documentation from Porsche on the expected life of the engine or any other parts of the car?

Should they from a customer satisfaction standpoint? Yes, should they to keep customer loyalty? Yes. But they certainly don't have to.

You still have time to sell your car if it bothers you and you haven't had an engine failure.

By the way, you're getting the opinion of a mechanical engineer who understood the problem before buying the car and is willing to risk the purchase for the satisfaction that it brings. I may be in a different position from others on the board in that if the engine does fail, I will gladly move to the more robust Raby rebuild, but again, if you are worried about it and can't afford a replacement engine if it does happen, why do you still have the car?

[Jaxonalden]

Originally Posted by boxster_s_boy_34

Alright boys, here's the deal, lets all use a little common sense here. You can only build something so much one way or so much another way before you sacrafice. Porsches are a performance vehicle, and we should be glad that they do what they do with out the often engine "freshening" that Ferrari owners have to deal with. Take for example the Honda Civic, gutless wonder, 1,000,000 mile engine (a little exaggerated but you see where I'm going with this). The fact that these vehicles perform the way that they do and are less expensive to maintain than say a Viper that is actually a domestic car is pretty awesome!

Do you not understand the point of this Thread? It's about known failures in the engine, particularly one part-the intermediate shaft. It has nothing to do with the Boxster being a performance vehicle. 11:1, dual overhead cam, variable valve timing, flat 6 is not that high tech. And it sure doesn't deserve the distinction of a high output-low service life engine (thats reserved for race engines). These production cars should go 100,000 miles easy, and do. But the know problem still exists and needs to be addressed before it claims another victim, maybe you, and thats the point.

[Jaxonalden]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

As we all know, there's no data on the frequency of these engine failures. Is it 5% or 25%? It's easy to panic.

Porsche is under absolutely no legal obligation to fix an engine that's out of warranty, heck, they don't even need to offer a warranty at all legally. Do you see any kind of documentation from Porsche on the expected life of the engine or any other parts of the car?

Should they from a customer satisfaction standpoint? Yes, should they to keep customer loyalty? Yes. But they certainly don't have to.

You still have time to sell your car if it bothers you and you haven't had an engine failure.

By the way, you're getting the opinion of a mechanical engineer who understood the problem before buying the car and is willing to risk the purchase for the satisfaction that it brings. I may be in a different position from others on the board in that if the engine does fail, I will gladly move to the more robust Raby rebuild, but again, if you are worried about it and can't afford a replacement engine if it does happen, why do you still have the car?

Why is it assumed that I can't afford a mechanical fix if this happens? You guys that argue the point if there is a failure you'll just throw money at the problem and everything will be fine. How about helping out your fellow boxster owners and figure out a fix that doesn't cost us money that we don't need to spend?

[blue2000s]

[QUOTE=Jaxonalden]Why is it assumed that I can't afford a mechanical fix if this happens? You guys that argue the point if there is a failure you'll just throw money at the problem and everything will be fine. How about helping out your fellow boxster owners and figure out a fix that doesn't cost us money that we don't need to spend?

QUOTE]

The way I see it, if you've still got your Porsche and you know that if the engine goes you're most likely stuck with the bill, you're bent over just as far as the rest of us.

[roadracer311]

[QUOTE=Jaxonalden]
QUOTE]

I don't work for Porsche, but I do have degrees in physics and math.
...and as a former motorcycle roadracer, I'm all about taking responsibility for my decisions.

I did my research, I knew what I was buying when I bought my car. I got a car with 17,900 miles on it for HALF of the $60k that it cost someone else 4 years prior. I assumed right from the start that a big part of the inexpensive acquisition price is to make up for the higher than average cost of ownership, and the fact that the other guy had a warranty and I don't. So I'm not going to try to make it someone else's problem in the unlikely event that I have a major problem with my out-of-warranty car that should have been driven more in the first place. If it roaches a motor, I'll take part of that $30k I saved by buying used, spend it on a new motor and still be ahead of the game vs. buying new.

Most people do a fair amount of research before spending >$30k on a car. This means that the possibility of an engine failure has already been priced-in to the acquisition cost (for used cars), and that's why used Boxsters are so affordable.

Anyone who didn't do their research before buying a Porsche, and is freaked out by the small possibility of a (very expensive) failure has an easy solution: sell the car and get something they're more comfortable with.

[boxster_s_boy_34]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Why is it assumed that I can't afford a mechanical fix if this happens? You guys that argue the point if there is a failure you'll just throw money at the problem and everything will be fine. How about helping out your fellow boxster owners and figure out a fix that doesn't cost us money that we don't need to spend?

:

Well there is always this point to look at; I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that I am dying for an excuse to send my car to RUF and get a 3600S made out of it. Now how could I do that if the engine lasts for ever. Also, I get it, I get it, KNOWN PROBLEM. You act like this is the first car that Porsche has ever built with KNOWN PROBLEMS existing. It's really not even that serious. Oh and the conspiracy theory is cute, but grow up! I'm definately one of the youngest guys on this site from what I see but I don't even have that much of an imagination.

[Jaxonalden]

Originally Posted by boxster_s_boy_34

Well there is always this point to look at; I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that I am dying for an excuse to send my car to RUF and get a 3600S made out of it. Now how could I do that if the engine lasts for ever. Also, I get it, I get it, KNOWN PROBLEM. You act like this is the first car that Porsche has ever built with KNOWN PROBLEMS existing. It's really not even that serious. Oh and the conspiracy theory is cute, but grow up! I'm definately one of the youngest guys on this site from what I see but I don't even have that much of an imagination.

Yea, the conspiracy theory was a joke, like you are.