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Old 07-18-2017, 01:14 PM   #1
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IMS - Going with SKF hybrid

EDIT: Went a completely different direction, new thread here : IMS - 2rs + freeze plug

Decided to do my IMS bearing and go my own way, sort of.

bearing I will be using is:

SKF-Bearing 6204-2RSLTN9/HC5C3WT

Edit: Due to excellent research by Markus, it has been determined this bearing is not suitable. Please see rest of thread, but looks like I will use Pelican Parts bearing in kit.

it has been used with success by other porschephiles and is only $150. Will be using the original center bolt. It mainly seems to fail when the bearing fails, and by then it is too late anyway.

Edit: I have purchased the pelican parts IMS kit to get the ancillary hardware and uprated center bolt.

This SKF Bearing has a polymer cage, however, the polymer SKF uses has a 10,000 hour lifespan at 230F which equates to 350,000 miles roughly. Since I plan to change the bearing every 50-60K or so, that should be more than fine.

Edit: I am wondering if I could push this bearing closer to the 100K mark. i'm thinking that might be reasonable.

C3 allows for thermal expansion.

The one area I am thinking of diverging from the norm significantly is whether the bearing should be sealed or open. The oil in the crankcase is pre-filter. Everything that washes back to the sump can meander into the bearing if it is open to the oil. Any little flake can drift over and trash your IMS bearing. With seals on the IMS bearing you have at least some protection as only the smallest of particles could meander between the seal and the race. Greases in bearings nowadays are synthetic and much higher quality than even 10 years ago, so I am not as worried about the grease drying out as maybe I would have been previously.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

regards,

Silber

Last edited by Silber; 07-27-2017 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:32 PM   #2
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My experience so far...

....










IMS Solution.

4,500 miles.

109 degrees.

10,900 foot mountain pass crossing.

Two people.

Trunk & Frunk filled with luggage.

Drove REAL fast. Uphill. Full throttle. Fully loaded. At high altitude. In 109 degree heat.

Zero drama.

Ya gonna cheap out on the bearing inside your engine that could leave you stuck on the side of the road at 3am, in the rain? Really?

INVEST in the IMS solution.

Just do it.

Good luck.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:38 PM   #3
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I am using a very very high quality bearing.

I am not worried it will fail any sooner or later than any other high quality hybrid bearing.

My question was more about the open vs closed bearing question. It seems to me closed has advantages, but I could be wrong.

regards,

Silber
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:49 PM   #4
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SKF has no reason to lie to you. They publish their simulation models and even provide you with the cad data incl tolerance. Run the sim yourself, you'll end up with the same results as theirs. 6.5 kilonewtons static, rated 17k rpm. If really nitrite ceramic and with those data specs, me think you'll be able to move this bearing across to your next 3 vehicles bud. Sealed or not lolll

$150 is pretty nasty tough :/ Considering they didn't manufacture too many, guess that's the admission to SKF's vip

and that is some dream stuff thank you very much. Your post goes to shows how well some of us make great use of the roadster
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:32 PM   #5
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thanks for the input nine8six

The way I looked at it was I could get the best suitable bearing of the best manufacturer for $150, or a hybrid single row IMS kit for $700. I decided to bet my money and my engine on high end SKF hardware. I feel it is a safe bet. Others may differ.

Silber
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silber View Post
Will be using the original center bolt. It mainly seems to fail when the bearing fails, and by then it is too late anyway.
We have had a handful of the factory center bolts fail while the bearing was still in working order. Then tend to fail adjacent to or at the under cut for the small O-ring. LN's kit uses a much stouter center bolt without the severe undercut for that reason. As you also stress the Hell out of the center bolt extracting the OEM bearing, I am not a fan of this approach. But it is your car, and your money.................
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silber View Post
thanks for the input nine8six

The way I looked at it was I could get the best suitable bearing of the best manufacturer for $150, or a hybrid single row IMS kit for $700. I decided to bet my money and my engine on high end SKF hardware. I feel it is a safe bet. Others may differ.

Silber
yea, not cheap. If SKF themselves can manufacture those hard materials at around $100 each, try to imagine the price that the other privateers has to pay for custom/smaller volume. Ouch lollll

That other $700 kit uses similar materials (I presume?) and if so, therefore also cheap considering the support, tools and docs all over. You can get ROI if you plan on selling the car after this sort of maintenance also. Less with an unknown bearing, if none at all.

Like other said, choice is yours. If you ask me, I've never paid more than $80 for a bearing (steel) LOL Some of them runs in a lathe spindle literally crunching (grenading?) heavy metals all day long here (12hrs/day, full time). Go Go SKF indeed, works...
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:45 PM   #8
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Good data points. I may try to source a stronger center bolt, sounds like that may be the weak part of my plan.

Edit:

I bought the pelican parts bearing kit to get the stronger Bolt and other items.

So, all in and I am still under 350 for a hybrid bearing from a very reputable manufacturer with a stronger center bolt.

Silber

Last edited by Silber; 07-18-2017 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:26 AM   #9
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There are several ways to remove the bearing. If you pull it by the center bolt (which most brainless people do) they break for shure sooner or later.

If the bearing has failed, i would also recommend to replace everything. So an after market solution with all components will be better for shure.

And: there are a lot good after market solutions out there. Not only the one that is praised and advertised in almost every post in this forum.

And: there are a lot of bearings available. There are also smaller companies that offer bearings that are specified for much stronger applications like space traveling. So, i would recommend to do a little more research. But i'm out now, because i know what's coming next. Had too much IMS discussions in this forum.

Regards from Germany

Markus
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:46 PM   #10
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I used a similar SKF bearing but went with the steel high speed version and not the ceramic.
Cost me 25 gbp against 80 gbp for the ceramic
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by jimk04 View Post
I used a similar SKF bearing but went with the steel high speed version and not the ceramic.
Cost me 25 gbp against 80 gbp for the ceramic
Details? Mileage, experience? Would you go the same way again?

Thanks
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:27 AM   #12
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There are several ways to remove the bearing. If you pull it by the center bolt (which most brainless people do) they break for shure sooner or later.
Could you explain to everyone how you would extract the IMS bearing without pulling on the center bolt?
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:18 AM   #13
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Could you explain to everyone how you would extract the IMS bearing without pulling on the center bolt?
Here is one example of a procedure:

IMS Bearing Pulling Tool

this is also a good read from the same page:

Sourcing Your Own Porsche IMS Bearing

I diverge with him in that I am using a polymer cage based on its material properties being suitable for the temperatures seen in the Boxster engine.

Would I have preferred stainless or brass cage, probably. However, the polymer SKF uses absorbs lubricant, so can prevent failure in an oil starvation scenario. The material properties of PA66 glass reinforced Resin are such that the life of the cage should be longer than the life of the car, even at the temperatures seen in the Porsche engine.

Last edited by Silber; 07-20-2017 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:58 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silber View Post
Here is one example of a procedure:

IMS Bearing Pulling Tool

this is also a good read from the same page:

Sourcing Your Own Porsche IMS Bearing

....
Just a note: Burner did break the center bolt during his initial attempt to extract it:
WTB IMS Center Bolt Dual Row

He has some amusing/informative Youtube Boxster videos.
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:02 AM   #15
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There is more to intelligent IMSB replacement than getting the best spec Bearing.
If that was the only issue, anyone who could read a Bearing Catalog would be an expert.
It may be wise to examine the upgrades offered in some of the better kits and understand why they have these different/upgraded features.
If you are just wanting a low budget replacement bearing EBay has them for $5 but ....
Or buy one of the better kits and substitute your own upgraded bearing

Last edited by Gelbster; 07-21-2017 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silber View Post
Here is one example of a procedure:

IMS Bearing Pulling Tool

this is also a good read from the same page:

Sourcing Your Own Porsche IMS Bearing

I diverge with him in that I am using a polymer cage based on its material properties being suitable for the temperatures seen in the Boxster engine.

Would I have preferred stainless or brass cage, probably. However, the polymer SKF uses absorbs lubricant, so can prevent failure in an oil starvation scenario. The material properties of PA66 glass reinforced Resin are such that the life of the cage should be longer than the life of the car, even at the temperatures seen in the Porsche engine.
I think I should point out that, in my opinion, he was extremely lucky the pilot bearing tool held, as they are not designed for this type of load. We know of two cases where the center bolt failed during extraction and the owners resorted to this tool. When the fingers on this type of tool failed, we ended up with the cars to extract the bearing by other means.

As for using an off the shelf bearing, it is your car and your money. I can tell you that the hybrid ceramic design that LN uses is made exclusively for them, and cannot be sourced.

Over the years, several people have tried all sorts of replacement bearings. Some have worked, others not so much. As a shop, we have to go with what we know works, and leave the experimentation to those with the time and the nerve to assume the risk.
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Last edited by JFP in PA; 07-20-2017 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:15 AM   #17
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Tools for IMS replacement

There are many forum members that have purchased the (LN Engineering) tool set and will probably not use it again for years, if ever. There are several loan-with-deposit offers buried in the classified section. If you don't want to purchase, look there or post a wanted thread.

You can have a very expensive mistake trying to improvise and learn as you go. The correct procedure, with the correct tools is pretty safe.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:15 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by JFP in PA View Post
we ended up with the cars to extract the bearing by other means.
Something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Goplus-Bearing-Internal-Extractor-Remover/dp/B01N4UJFRH/

or this?

https://www.amazon.com/Kukko-KK21-6-Internal-Extractor/dp/B00D8VL0X4

regards,

Silber
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:37 PM   #19
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We have used the Kukko several times, and it always did the job. LN used to actually sell them if memory serves..............
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