Ims replacement life

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by particlewave

If that were the case, then why would LN sell the IMS Gaurdian? By your statement, it is completely worthless marketing hype garbage. Not even close to true, but I see that you drank heavily of the JR brand kool-aid, so no point in further discussion.

The Guardian was targeted at the later (2005+) cars which could not be retrofitted in any case without a complete disassembly. Its purpose was to alert the owner to accumulating metal in the oil before the unit failed catastrophically, allowing some of the engine to be saved.

[mikefocke]

Is there a difference between the steel bearings used by Porsche and in the Pelican sold kits and ceramic bearings. Yes. Cost for one. But the design specs of the ceramic bearings from LN are way way beyond those of the steel ones. And the car owners experiences seem to bear this out.

Are all the Porsche used bearings the same? No. There were three Porsche-installed versions: Double row - good. Single row - worst. Large single row but not easily/cheaply replaceable - better.

LN initially suggested a shorter interval before replacement when they offered their first kits.

Why did they do that? Because initially they weren't able to install enough of their kits and get enough years and miles on them to give them a statistically valid measurement of how long they would last. As installations ran into the thousands and years and miles mounted, they gradually increased the recommended interval. The interval varies with which LN choice your engine accepts and the choice you make. Oh, by the way, LN/Flat6 have produced up to 4 different kit designs that might fit your engine. Some are expected to outlast the car and engine. Some are better than others. Costs are different.

Have there been failures of engines with LN bearings installed? Yes. Some were obvious amateur installations. Force them in sideways and see what happens with any bearing. Don't freeze them, almost sure to fail. Some were put in contaminated engines though the owner would never admit that. Some were even done days before selling the car by shysters. And they were a very few early in the production that showed problems when taken out in the shorter interval then suggested. LN asked for those back. Made good on their guarantee. Even changed one of their designs shortly after production started because of some very few early failures. Haven't seen that type of failure since. And some were installed in engines where the mounting holes for the IMS and the crankshaft weren't aligned with each other correctly from the factory or as the result of a prior failure.

I follow the IMS issue on 7 forums. Have for 7 years or so. Even so I guarantee I don't know it all. I can't recall a failure reported recently in an engine where the pre-installation qualification was done.

Lots of botched installations done by people who had not ever done something like this before.

If you stick with the LN recommended installer, insist on the pre-installation qualification inspections, and have a clean engine with a block where the mounting holes run true to each other, you should be fine. Some online instructions will lead you to big trouble just as they have others. Your approved mechanic will use LN's instructions and tools and may well have been to a class they teach with hands on experience taught by the guys who created to whole IMS replacement kit idea in the US.

Can you do it yourself? Some can. Some obviously couldn't.

LN has sold well over 10k of their kits.

Unfortunately, lots of loyalty driven posts have been seen in the forums on the IMS subject. Some advocacy based on personalities. Some defensiveness of a products reputation based on knowing things from talking to the installer.

Could some of the other bearing designs be better long term? Maybe but none has the years and miles of user experience supporting their claims like the LN products. And many ads seem IMHO to be marketing hype with claims that don't seem to be backed up by any evidence that I've seen of many successful installs with many years and miles.

How much to do/spend on preventative maintenance is up to you.

Ultimately, it is your car, your money, your choice. Good luck.

[DWBOX2000]

Thanks guys. All very helpful. I am having mine done next week. Wish me luck. I am paying someone else.

I think the conclusion is the 6 year is more a random warranty number than anything else. 75k will take me 20 years. Good stuff.

[Tcar]

Originally Posted by DWBOX2000

Thanks guys. All very helpful. I am having mine done next week. Wish me luck. I am paying someone else.

That's a good move.

Make sure you get the paperwork, warranty and the serial number of the bearing. (Check this before it is done. Also make sure you're not their first bearing.)
There is a 'sticker' with the LN serial number on it that can be placed on the driver's door jamb next to the VIN/Date sticker.

Will automatically add $2k + to the market value of your car.


I almost bought an '01 S from a guy that did his own IMS in his garage. Was a very, very nice car and the price reflected having the LN bearing.
But, he had no paperwork or even pictures of the process. Plus it was the only one he'd ever done.
So, I passed, as the only way I could be sure would be to pull the trans.
Nope.

[Gelbster]

Thanks for the excellent review Mike.
Various vendors promoted their IMSB product on the Forums and have been interrogated by curious enthusiasts like me. When we identified possible deficiencies most just failed to respond. Except one company .They answered every question regardless how abusive the tone or how pseudo-knowledgeable the interrogator was. Sometimes the questions were relentless and to fully answer them, proprietary knowledge and research was disclosed. It does not take long to figure out which are the Engineers and which are mere marketers.

[JayG]

Originally Posted by Tcar

That's a good move.

Will automatically add $2k + to the market value of your car.

you have any empirical data to back that up?

[AaronPDX]

$2K seems like a spurious number. There's a whole market out there that knows nothing about the IMS bearing. You should replace it as insurance against a very possible failure, but mostly replacing it provides a very real peace of mind. I certainly wouldn't do it expecting my resale value to go up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JFP in PA]

We have done some PPI's on cars with retrofits, and they do seem to add value as well as interest on the buyer's side. How much depends on the overall condition of the car, with IMS Solutions commanding the most money.

[Smallblock454]

Originally Posted by Tcar

Will automatically add $2k + to the market value of your car.

Very interesting. Well the kit i posted above is around 600 euros without installation tool kit and 800 euros (approx 900 usd) including installation tools. Pretty shure i get a rebate if i buy 10.

So, i should buy some 986 cars and do some ISMB changes. Could be a nice profit.

Or does maybe the new clutch, clutchplate, 2-mass flywheel and the IMSB update generate the 2.000 USD? Than this would be not that profitable.

Regards, Markus

[DWBOX2000]

I am doing for peace of mind. I didn't know about the serial # sticker. Thanks.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Tcar

Will automatically add $2k + to the market value of your car.

Hmmm. From what I can discern, prices for 986's are nearly identical for cars with or without an IMS fix. Mileage, documented service history, and condition are the key factors that influence price and overwhelm whatever small contribution that an IMS fix might have on pricing.

And with over 200,000 Boxster's built and only 10,000 retrofit kits sold, there is still only about a 5% chance that a car has been updated - 95% still have the original IMS bearing.

[boxxster]

I have to say, with all the time I've spent on various car forums I've never seen a topic as contentious as the debate on what IMS bearing is best. I was doing a bit of research on what kit I should buy when I get around to doing the IMS and 95% of the information I came across was either uneducated opinion, conjecture, or just straight up bs. It was like wading through a steaming pile of crap to find that one piece of what I thought was reliable information. Interestingly enough, I went to a PCA approved shop in my area that has done many of these retrofits to see what the owner thought. I was ready to tell him to retrofit my car right then and there but instead he told me to change my oil frequently (5000km max) in the meantime and just do the IMS when it came time to do my clutch. He told me he's had several single row boxsters that have done over 200000km with no issues. The general impression I got from him was that the whole issue is overblown.

[Gelbster]

Agreed -assuming someone like JFP replaced the IMSB !
But in my case I should have bought a car still .with the original IMSB. Then replaced it myself. Instead I foolishly bought a car that had a replacement IMSB slapped in on an engine that would have failed it's Pre-Qualification checks.
The IMSB replacement is only as good as the Installer. The discussion of materials and designs is secondary in my experience.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by thstone

Hmmm. From what I can discern, prices for 986's are nearly identical for cars with or without an IMS fix. Mileage, documented service history, and condition are the key factors that influence price and overwhelm whatever small contribution that an IMS fix might have on pricing.

And with over 200,000 Boxster's built and only 10,000 retrofit kits sold, there is still only about a 5% chance that a car has been updated - 95% still have the original IMS bearing.

The actual number of LN retrofits (all types) is closer to 20,000.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by thstone

Hmmm. From what I can discern, prices for 986's are nearly identical for cars with or without an IMS fix. Mileage, documented service history, and condition are the key factors that influence price and overwhelm whatever small contribution that an IMS fix might have on pricing.

And with over 200,000 Boxster's built and only 10,000 retrofit kits sold, there is still only about a 5% chance that a car has been updated - 95% still have the original IMS bearing.

The actual number of LN retrofits (all types) is closer to 20,000.

In the same sense that a car with a low mileage clutch and new tires may fetch more than an exactly similar car with a 80K clutch and nearly dead tires, buyers that recognize the cost to do a retrofit also recognize its value in a car already done. That said, there needs to be supporting documentation from the shop that did it, or you need to be able to see the oil line of the IMS Solution with the car on a lift before it hits home.

[B6T]

I didn't realize installation error was such a common occurrence...

It would be interesting to see how they did it at the factory.

[Boxtaboy]

Porsche's original bearing must be the best then cause I'm still on my original factory bearing 15 yrs later. 01 986 with 72k miles, oil changed with Mobil 1 0w-40 every 15k miles or 2 years! Still rockin and rollin.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by B6T

I didn't realize installation error was such a common occurrence...

It would be interesting to see how they did it at the factory.

It was pressed into the shaft while being held in a fixture so nothing could move out of alignment. All done in one clean movement.

Unfortunately, the field retrofit process has one correct method and an infinite number of ways to do it wrong.

[Fintro11]

Originally Posted by ltusler

If you see metal particles in the oil its too late to change the bearing.

Wrong, friend had his dual row in for clutch / ims. There was a bunch of metal in the ims tube bearing was just about to go. They cleaned it out did a few low km oil changes its been a year and the car is fine

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Fintro11

Wrong, friend had his dual row in for clutch / ims. There was a bunch of metal in the ims tube bearing was just about to go. They cleaned it out did a few low km oil changes its been a year and the car is fine

Your friend 's experience is vastly in the minority. We have on several occasions declined to retrofit cars because metal was found during the pre-inspection process. Of those cars which were subsequently retrofitted by others, to date, none have survived. While some lived longer than others, they all eventually succumbed, mostly to bearing failures. The worst one did not make it 50 miles.

Retrofitting one of these cars that already has metal in the oil is to take on a very long odds scenario; a few may win, but most do not.