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Old 10-15-2006, 04:06 AM   #1
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Brake upgrade for non-S

I would like to upgrade my non-s brakes to S brakes I know the dealer sells a kit for this but..can someone tell me what this involves-does it require larger rotors, different pads, and any special brackets to put on the new calipers? thanks.
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Old 10-16-2006, 10:27 AM   #2
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I have done the swap to Box S brakes on my 00 box. I did it to upgrade braking to match the 3.4l 996 engine I am putting in.

The fronts are a straight swap. The S calipers bolt right on, and the rotors as well. The S rotors, in addition to being cross drilled are also larger in diameter, and wider than the stock S.

The rears are more of a pain. Probably to get a significant improvement in braking, you could just do the fronts and leave the rears stock, but I didn't want to leave the rears stock for the sake of completeness (or some may say obsession!!). The rear rotors are also wider and larger in diameter, and they don't fit with the caliperson the stock non "S" wheel carrier. When you bolt on the rotor, the caliper does not clear it. There is also a problem with the stock backing plate, which is too small to fit the rotor as well. So, from here you can go two ways, Way 1 would be to change out the wheel bearing carriers to those of an S, (the expensive way). You may need to change out some of the control arms as well, I am not sure. I know that the S has strengthened rear control arms, as well as larger bearing carriers.

Way 2 is to do what I did, which is to buy the very clever kit made by FVD which provides a larger backing plate, and spacers that go between the caliper and the bearing carrier. These spacer plates go between the caliper and the boss on the bearing carrier, and provide enough standoff so that the calipers can make it around the rotors.

You also need to buy the parking brakes shoes, springs, and tension adjuster of the S, which all fit very nicely with the revised backing plate.

Hope this helps
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pecivil
I have done the swap to Box S brakes on my 00 box. I did it to upgrade braking to match the 3.4l 996 engine I am putting in...Hope this helps
Hi,

This is a common misconception. People often upgrade the Brakes because of Engine upgrades or mods. This makes absolutely no sense. The stock brakes are more than adequate and if they stopped the car from 60MPH before the mods, they'll do the same thing after the mods (unless the mods added 500 Lbs.). You may get to 60MPH faster after the mods, but that doesn't put any more strain on the brakes than before, it's still the same car so far as the Brakes are concerned.

As I said, the Stock Brakes are more than adequate, stopping the car from 60-0 in 115 ft. which is considered very good. The 'S' Brakes will do the same in 110ft., not a great improvement, but they are heavier adding to the unsprung weight of the car (usually undesireable). And as for the arguement that these 5 ft. may make the difference, that's a senseless arguement because you may just as easily need to stop in 109 ft. to avoid the trouble in which case neither Brake setup is gonna save your Bacon. The trick is to avoid trouble by safe, experienced, driving practices.

The Brake upgrade is a total waste of money (upwards of $2500-$3000) unless:
  • A. You are regularly Tracking the car in which case they will increase the fade resistance (not an issue at all with a Street Car).

    B. You just like the asthetic and the Bling of it all (and for that money, you better REALLY like it), because you won't be getting any appreciable increase in performance, especially if compared on a cost/benefit analysis.

Another thing to consider, Power and Performance mods may actually hurt your resell value, or at least make the car harder to sell. I've bought more than 40 cars in my life, 30 of them sports cars. I view a heavily modded car as a heavily used and perhaps abused car and I know others who think the same way. I'm less impressed with a heavily modded car (you need to worry were the mods done right?) and have passed on every one I ever looked at, even if I intended to mod a car in a similar way.

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Last edited by MNBoxster; 10-16-2006 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:25 PM   #4
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well......

I figured that since the factory decided larger brakes were necessary for the Box S, I'd put em in for a 3.4 engine swap....

also look at the brakes on the Cayman S with 295 hp just slightly below what the 3.4 engine puts out, also has larger brakes than the stock boxster.

so it does appear that porsche engineers deem it necessary to upgrade the brakes with increasing hp and I stand by my upgrade for the same reason.

So jim, are you just smarter than the porsche engineers, or did I miss something?
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pecivil
I figured that since the factory decided larger brakes were necessary for the Box S, I'd put em in for a 3.4 engine swap....

also look at the brakes on the Cayman S with 295 hp just slightly below what the 3.4 engine puts out, also has larger brakes than the stock boxster.

so it does appear that porsche engineers deem it necessary to upgrade the brakes with increasing hp and I stand by my upgrade for the same reason.

So jim, are you just smarter than the porsche engineers, or did I miss something?

Hi,

I think you missed something.

The Boxster S and Cayman S are both 'S' or Sport variables. I don't concede that the factory decided they were necessary, but these are more Enthusiast minded and it's assumed will be tracked or usually driven spiritedly. Second, both these models weigh more than the Boxster, horsepower has nothing to do with it at all, it's the weight. Finally, it distinguishes the model from it's Base sibling and provides some justification for the greater Price Point.

Am I smarter than the Porsche Engineers? I don't know - I haven't met them all...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:52 PM   #6
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thanks..both viewpoints though different are interesting and helpful.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:46 PM   #7
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so Jim, according to that line of thinking, the reason they put even LARGER brakes on the 911 S and the 911 turbo, is because they are heavier, and it has nothing to do with horsepower? I can't imagine that the Boxster S weighs too much over the standard model. Certainly not enough to justify larger brakes.

But, Hey maybe you are right, and Porsche only puts on bigger brakes to charge more $$$ and for the "bling" factor.

But somehow, I doubt it.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pecivil
so Jim, according to that line of thinking, the reason they put even LARGER brakes on the 911 S and the 911 turbo, is because they are heavier, and it has nothing to do with horsepower? I can't imagine that the Boxster S weighs too much over the standard model. Certainly not enough to justify larger brakes.

But, Hey maybe you are right, and Porsche only puts on bigger brakes to charge more $$$ and for the "bling" factor.

But somehow, I doubt it.
Hi,

Yes, Horsepower has absolutely nothing to do with how a car stops. You can have 1000 Horsepower on a Boxster and assuming the weight hasn't changed, it will still stop in the same distance with the same brakes as a stock 200HP one. If you're braking from 60 MPH you're braking from 60 MPH, it's the same whether you reached that 60 MPH in 3 seconds or 10 seconds, you are still braking from 60MPH...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:59 PM   #9
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Jim, Jim, Jim.....

of course hp has nothing to do with how a car stops....

but it has a LOT to do with how fast the car is going when it tries to stop, 'eh?

so as a cars TOP speed increases, the braking capacity needs to increase to be able to stop in a reasonable distance, correct?

so if my boxster, or twin turbo 911, or whatever stops from 60mph, yes the same brakes will work just dandy

However if my boxster is stopping from 150mph, BUT my 911 twin turbo is stopping from 185mph, then we need better brakes on the turbo, if it is to slow down in the same distance as the boxster. The key is stopping in the same (or lesser) distance.

Stopping DISTANCE is the key here, Jim. I could easily stop my twin turbo with my stock boxster brakes, cept it may take a bit longer to do it.

so, what we end up with is:

a higher hp car needs bigger brakes

exactly what I said in the beginning, and exactly what car makers tend to do with their sports cars.
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Old 10-16-2006, 05:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pecivil
of course hp has nothing to do with how a car stops....

but it has a LOT to do with how fast the car is going when it tries to stop, 'eh?

so as a cars TOP speed increases, the braking capacity needs to increase to be able to stop in a reasonable distance, correct?

so if my boxster, or twin turbo 911, or whatever stops from 60mph, yes the same brakes will work just dandy

However if my boxster is stopping from 150mph, BUT my 911 twin turbo is stopping from 185mph, then we need better brakes on the turbo, if it is to slow down in the same distance as the boxster. The key is stopping in the same (or lesser) distance.

Stopping DISTANCE is the key here, Jim. I could easily stop my twin turbo with my stock boxster brakes, cept it may take a bit longer to do it.

so, what we end up with is:

a higher hp car needs bigger brakes

exactly what I said in the beginning, and exactly what car makers tend to do with their sports cars.

Hi,

Again, HP has nothing to do (relatively speaking) with the top speed of a car, it has to do with how fast you attain that top speed. Most cars are aerodynamically limited, not power limited, to how fast they can go. You're never gonna hit 150 MPH in a Boxster unless the Top is Up anyway.

Your arguement about the Boxster at 150 MPH vs the TT at 185 MPH is illogical, you're comparing apples to oranges.

For a street driven Boxster, how often (if ever) do you go 150MPH or even 100MPH? And, assuming there are times which you do, how often are you gonna need to panic Brake at that speed? And who says that the Brake upgrade will be sufficient?

The differences in Stopping Distance are really negligible, less than 10% between the two Brake setups. Given the cost and such, I just don't believe it's worth it. I think most doing the upgrade are going for the Bling of it all and justifying it with arguements like yours.

The value to the Brake upgrade is on the Track where the smaller Brakes will fade more readily. On the Street, where you don't have a constant application of the Brakes without a cooling period in-between, they don't offer that much advantage...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 10-16-2006, 08:11 PM   #11
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Hey, I agree with Jim on this one, except the part about horsepower and top speed a 2001 Boxster and 2001 996 have the same front end (therefore the same drag) , guess which one goes faster?

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Old 10-16-2006, 09:59 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Paul
Hey, I agree with Jim on this one, except the part about horsepower and top speed a 2001 Boxster and 2001 996 have the same front end (therefore the same drag) , guess which one goes faster?
Hi,

I know what you're saying, but Frontal Area is just one component of Drag. The 911 (especially the coupe) is cleaner in overall drag than the Boxster. Yes, I agree, HP allows the 911 to exceed the Boxster purely because of the power which is available to overcome the drag which is the square of the car's speed. But, it's also more efficient. Put the same 3.4L into the Boxster and you won't match the 911's Top Speed, you'd need even more HP to do that, 100 HP more by my calculations...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 10-17-2006, 03:24 PM   #13
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BTW my major at Penn State was Aerospace engineering, want to talk about Reynolds number, stagnation pressure, force equations for deformable bodies???

0.29 - Porsche Boxster, 2005
0.29 - Chevrolet Corvette, 2005
0.29 - Mazda RX-7 FC3S Aero Package, 1986-91
0.29 - Lancia Dedra, 1990-1998
0.29 - Honda Accord Hybrid, 2005
0.29 - Lotus Elite, 1958
0.29 - Mercedes-Benz W203 C-Class Coupe, 2001 - 2007
0.28 - Toyota Camry and sister model Lexus ES, 2005
0.28 - Porsche 997, 2004


.29 for a boxster, .28 for a 997?????
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Old 10-17-2006, 05:55 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Paul
BTW my major at Penn State was Aerospace engineering, want to talk about Reynolds number, stagnation pressure, force equations for deformable bodies???

0.29 - Porsche Boxster, 2005
0.29 - Chevrolet Corvette, 2005
0.29 - Mazda RX-7 FC3S Aero Package, 1986-91
0.29 - Lancia Dedra, 1990-1998
0.29 - Honda Accord Hybrid, 2005
0.29 - Lotus Elite, 1958
0.29 - Mercedes-Benz W203 C-Class Coupe, 2001 - 2007
0.28 - Toyota Camry and sister model Lexus ES, 2005
0.28 - Porsche 997, 2004


.29 for a boxster, .28 for a 997?????
Hi,

Well, if we're comparing resume's, I have a BS in Aeronautical Engineering and a BS in Materials Science from the University of Minnesota and an MS in Aeronautical Engineering from M.I.T (courtesy of the US Navy), Certified Test Pilot - (USNTPS) US Navy Flight Test Center - Naval Air Station, Patuxent River.

Now that that's out of the way, you make my point for me - the Boxster is clean, the 996 is cleaner...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Last edited by MNBoxster; 10-17-2006 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:11 PM   #15
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Congrats!

I was going to make the Air Force a career (ROTC) but in 1969 my draft number was 324 and a lot of my classmates were just back from Vietnam (GI Bill) and told me I was crazy.

I did go on to get a private license and an instrument rating and bought a Piper, but I envy your flight experience, since I've always wanted to push the throttles on a fighter!!! I have shot approaches several times at Patuxent.... My brother is stationed at Mountain Home (a lifer).

But I still doubt that the Boxster would need to have 100 more hp than a 996 to have the same drag limited top speed.
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:27 PM   #16
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Hey Doc,

I'm no scientist but this is what i was told. The Boxster brakes on the base are amazing. No need to buy S brakes.

If you ask me, they only put those brakes on the S to make it different from the base model. Meaning that they needed to justify an S model, so they gave you red S brakes, a new bumper, 6speed and so on. So pretty much it's a waste of money to put the S brakes on a base.

If you plan to drive the car at 150mph and come to a complete stop everytime that you drive, then yes get the S brakes.

I'm under the impression that the big brakes just make the car stop faster / better / closer ?

n for that matter, the base brakes are pretty big. I painted mine yellow, and they are pretty big.
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by MNBoxster
Again, HP has nothing to do (relatively speaking) with the top speed of a car, it has to do with how fast you attain that top speed. Most cars are aerodynamically limited, not power limited, to how fast they can go. You're never gonna hit 150 MPH in a Boxster unless the Top is Up anyway.


cars are drag-limited at a given power output. terminal velocity is reached when the power required to overcome drag for a given vehicle equals the maximum power output of the motor. for a vehicle of a given frontal area and cd, increasing the power output will increase the top speed capability.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBoxster
The value to the Brake upgrade is on the Track where the smaller Brakes will fade more readily. On the Street, where you don't have a constant application of the Brakes without a cooling period in-between, they don't offer that much advantage...


agreed. pecivil's point, however, is still valid for track scenarios. a higher HP car will see higher average speeds around a track (given equal chassis). accordingly, the kinetic energy the brakes will have to shed increases. this will increase heat. as a brake system essentially changes kinetic energy to thermal energy, the job of a brake rotor is to get rid of that heat, hence the larger system. on the road, this makes almost no difference. on the track, it makes a LOT of difference.
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:14 PM   #18
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Congrats!

I was going to make the Air Force a career (ROTC) but in 1969 my draft number was 324 and a lot of my classmates were just back from Vietnam (GI Bill) and told me I was crazy.

I did go on to get a private license and an instrument rating and bought a Piper, but I envy your flight experience, since I've always wanted to push the throttles on a fighter!!! I have shot approaches several times at Patuxent.... My brother is stationed at Mountain Home (a lifer).

But I still doubt that the Boxster would need to have 100 more hp than a 996 to have the same drag limited top speed.

Hi,

I hear ya, my Draft Number came up #12! So I ran to the NROTC Office, raised my right hand, and signed up (I had been in JrROTC in HS) as a Naval Flight Officer. This allowed me to complete school before reporting, but my intention had always been NAVY AIR.

Then, I passed the Flight Exams (got my Private License at 17) and was off to NAS Pensacola for Basic Flight Training (T-34C Turbomentor). Then to NAS Beeville,TX for Advanced Jet Training (AF-9F). Luckily, I graduated high enough to get a coveted 'fleet seat' and was off to NAS Miramar.

RAG (Replacement Air Group) VF-121 for training and certification in the F-4 PhantomII, this included Air-to-Air (NAS Miramar), Gunnery (NAWS China Lake), then back to Miramar for Seaquals.

Finally, I was assigned to VF-142, the "Ghostriders", on the USS Midway and did 8 WestPacs, mostly MigCap, ResCap, but also some IronHand. Two tours on Yankee Station (Gulf of Tonkin) and one on Dixie Station (Mekong River Delta - South China Sea). Got my 3,000 Flight Hours and shot at a few times.

Then Graduate School and off to Pax River for Test Pilot School and 3 years in the Navy Flight Test Center flying nearly everything in the inventory - F-8, A-4, F-4, F-14, F/A-18, F-16 (yes, this was originally spec'd for the Navy and still carries it's Tailhook today). It was fun - I got to fly REALLY fast airplanes and spend copius amounts of the Taxpayer's Money - for Pay!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Last edited by MNBoxster; 10-17-2006 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:17 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by insite
cars are drag-limited at a given power output. terminal velocity is reached when the power required to overcome drag for a given vehicle equals the maximum power output of the motor. for a vehicle of a given frontal area and cd, increasing the power output will increase the top speed capability.







agreed. pecivil's point, however, is still valid for track scenarios. a higher HP car will see higher average speeds around a track (given equal chassis). accordingly, the kinetic energy the brakes will have to shed increases. this will increase heat. as a brake system essentially changes kinetic energy to thermal energy, the job of a brake rotor is to get rid of that heat, hence the larger system. on the road, this makes almost no difference. on the track, it makes a LOT of difference.
Hi,

No disagreement here...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:20 AM   #20
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But I still doubt that the Boxster would need to have 100 more hp than a 996 to have the same drag limited top speed.
jim - i think you're off by a decimal point. i get 10HP more to go the same top speed.
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