Transmission case separation? - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

DarkStar · 08-09-2016, 06:00 PM

I've searched and searched... I find tons of other porsche disassemble videos but but not for a boxster. I need to just do a quick inspection. Transmission is still out from all the maintenance I just performed but one more thing remains... My 2nd gear failure. I already believe it to be either the dog ring teeth or the 1st/2nd gear sleeve. Or both. But before I really dive into searching for replacement parts I would like to inspect it.

Any one have a video of the rear case separation? I've seen video after the case was removed with the gear set still attached. So I just wanna do that, so I can take a peak at all my components.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

DarkStar · 08-09-2016, 07:20 PM

Disregard this. I got it. Just took a stab at it since I've done a small few already. Now I know what's wrong...

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

Gelbster · 08-09-2016, 08:08 PM

Josh,
Well done for tackling a job that few have written about. It is the biggest 'secret' about the Boxster S and 6 speed 996.
There is a little info in Search but very little about the big problems:
1. The cost of the replacement parts is eye watering
2. The puller & press required is daunting
3. You need special tool made(doable) to insert before you start with the puller/press.
This is not a task for the feint hearted or novice transmission rebuilders.
If you are really going to dismantle and remove worn bearings and replace the 2nd gear, there is much reading and research to do. I have done some of that work and am pleased to share but still have some big holes in my knowledge.
Did you do the simple 'sticky finger' test to determine if the seals on the bearings have failed? It would be a pity to do all the 2nd gear work and then have to re-do because of failed bearings.
Is the dog ring on 2nd visibly worn? Was it poping out of 2nd gear ?

DarkStar · 08-09-2016, 09:11 PM

I've heard of said "Special Tool" But I've also heard that you just need a puller and a press which I have more than enough access to.... As for an actual special tool IDK what it is. And what it is for.

I do agree that the G86/G96 Transmissions have a very lacking knowledge base. All the people who do work on them seem to hide such info, I guess so they can make the money to do it themselves. But I've been building cars for some time, and while transmissions were never something I'd want to do, I have rebuilt a couple. And on top of it, I have tons of support from high end mechanics, engineers that work on cars and have tons of cool tools like CNC Machines etc.... and so much more. So besides this specialty tool, I believe I should be able to do the job.

As for price, I'm a little lost on that since what I do find is mixed. I've seen just a plain 2nd gear once for like 400 bucks, and I've seen it go for 1800. But finding prices again that aren't soo high has been difficult. I'm not too worried about doing this now, but it is the last remaining problem on my 01S.

So I have some time to keep researching now that I for sure know what is wrong. As for the problem, if you can't tell in the picture, the dog ring is grinded down pretty bad. When I got the car, 2nd gear was already tricky and was lied to about it by the dealer. Months later when playing with the car it was no more. I've gotten in the habit of shifting 1st to 3rd.

As for bearings, I didn't need to. See I just had the transmission media blasted to clean up for a 3D Scan of the belhousing for a special project I'm working on for the future. Something typical Porsche people are going to disown me for doing. During this, the seal on the axle output started leaking. So I popped the guy out and cleaned up some sand and put it back in. However due to this leak, it showed me that my transmission fluid was completely totaled. Its a yellowish white milky... whatever. So this is what made me decide to pop the case apart now. So when I pulled it apart, I started to look around, looking for my 2nd Gear and the 2nd Gear Failure. I found 2nd gear due to the damage done to the dog ring. IT was that noticable. The rest of the transmission is good. During my searching I was seeing video footage of the bearing failure of the G86/G96 Transmissions. And about the finger test. But with the case apart I didn't need to do this, I could see the metal and grease sluged around the magnet. And it wasn't as bad as some video's I've seen. But still, dirty as hell. I cleaned the magnet before putting it back in. BUT, I will not do this 2nd gear without upgrading the bearings. I'm not in the habit of half doing a job. If there is something that "WILL" fail eventually, and is already showing signs, I will replace it.

As for popping out.... No, it wont even go into gear. The detent was never an issue. It wasn't something I could pop into gear and have to hold it to keep it there, There is no 2nd due to the physical damage of the dog ring. First issues I had were grinding going in on normal shifting. An issue that wasn't a problem on other gears. The rest of the transmission shifts just fine. I knew it wasn't the detent from day one of searching since that seems to be a common problem. I never had this issue when it did shift.

I would enjoy as much info as I can grasp. Knowing the issue is the biggest part in my eyes. Can't just go around guessing whats wrong and researching the repairs of this. I had to know. And I'm glad I know. So now I just need to search for a new 2nd Gear at a good price that is worth it, and new style roller bearings and wait for a day when I can tear it down and not have to worry about getting to and from work. Right now I'm borrowing brothers truck while I do the IMS, Clutch, RMS, AOS and any oil leak I could find. But I can't stand driving this truck any longer and cannot afford anymore repairs right now.

IF you have any info at all, By all means I'd love to learn more. I thank you for your response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Josh,
Well done for tackling a job that few have written about. It is the biggest 'secret' about the Boxster S and 6 speed 996.
There is a little info in Search but very little about the big problems:
1. The cost of the replacement parts is eye watering
2. The puller & press required is daunting
3. You need special tool made(doable) to insert before you start with the puller/press.
This is not a task for the feint hearted or novice transmission rebuilders.
If you are really going to dismantle and remove worn bearings and replace the 2nd gear, there is much reading and research to do. I have done some of that work and am pleased to share but still have some big holes in my knowledge.
Did you do the simple 'sticky finger' test to determine if the seals on the bearings have failed? It would be a pity to do all the 2nd gear work and then have to re-do because of failed bearings.
Is the dog ring on 2nd visibly worn? Was it poping out of 2nd gear ?

DarkStar · 08-09-2016, 09:18 PM

Oh and in other news, I'm honestly shocked on how easy the Boxster is to work on. Even taking the case off of the transmission was easier than any other transmission I've worked on. Getting it out was easier, everything is just Cake! best damn car I've owned to work on.
:dance:

Timco · 08-09-2016, 09:22 PM

Wait until you put the cover back on the case....

The shift fork rods have to fit into all the roller bearing cups in the cover. The shift forks have to be set just right to get it to slip back together and no rollers can fall out of the main end bearing. I found it near impossible at first then easy enough. I had to use grease to hold the rollers in place on the main bearing.

Pdwight · 08-09-2016, 10:18 PM

Fascinating thread

Gelbster · 08-10-2016, 07:46 AM

I applaud your enthusiasm Josh but a few words of caution and encouragement.
You said there was no info on this and lots of secrets. Well here is a lot of info and I hope in return you will agree to add your contribution to the subject ? We need lots of details and photos!
You will need several hours to read through all the links below. Even the Links have Links !
1. You misunderstand which bearings ,which suggests you have not read much on this subject- yet. Look for bearing #16 on the Parts diagram.
Porsche Boxster Parts
2. The short version of the Searching and Reading is that it is usually much cheaper to buy a good used gearbox
3. As these 6 speed 996 & 986 cars age, finding good used gearboxes is going to get more difficult so we shall have to master the repair tasks of 2nd gear + sealed bearings
Suggest you search this forum and others.Whatever you do, please take lots of photos and Post here often.
4. The acknowledged experts in this are GBox and CMS.Get estimates before you proceed - see 2. above.
5. Some of the Posts are deceptively brief and conceal significant problems which are easily resolved if you know the 'secret'. See Timcos helpful comments on Forks/bearings/grease in a prior post in this Thread.
6. Dimensions of the special tool are given in the 2nd link below courtesy of NickHend. If you make one, may I suggest you make several and offer the rest for sale here? Once the CNC machine is set up , producing a few extra is a trivial cost.Then these tools can circulate among the 986 community?Like the IMSB tools.
A few links to get you started:
Transmission repair - Rennlist Discussion Forums
996 Transmission Rebuild and Pinion Bearing Replacement DIY - Rennlist Discussion Forums
Talk to Erik Johnson
Search Kukko 20-20+S -it is a 20 ton slender arm puller required to remove 2nd gear.http://www.samstagsales.com/images/KUKKO_20-S.jpg
For fun here is video that shows the sticky finger test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TXPFa4qgTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxV4XRTLBKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAl9g_Oar7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPamCMXcuRA

After all this help for you, I hope that in return, you'll have something to share with us here on the 986 Forum ?

Timco · 08-10-2016, 08:04 AM

Clean the magnet.

Don't lose bushing from the shift lever fork that moves the gear forks.

DarkStar · 08-11-2016, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timco

Wait until you put the cover back on the case....

The shift fork rods have to fit into all the roller bearing cups in the cover. The shift forks have to be set just right to get it to slip back together and no rollers can fall out of the main end bearing. I found it near impossible at first then easy enough. I had to use grease to hold the rollers in place on the main bearing.

Easy... Use a string to hold 1st and 2nd gear rod towards outside of case. Wiggle and it pops back into place.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

DarkStar · 08-11-2016, 11:56 AM

Gelbster I didn't misunderstand which bushings. I know exactly which bushings and all about the sticky finger test. But by the time I found out about it I already had the case off and don't need to stick my finger through the hole to inspect for grease... I just looked at the covered magnet. And I know the bearings are gone.

And holy crap thank you for that info. Luckily a very reputable transmission guy works for me... And luckily I habr a cnc machine readily available. I'm shocked at the level of info you gave compared to searches.

And I seriously have been searching for a while. It's been very cryptic. Trying to locate info on parts and tools. But luckily Im setup on tools. Just need to find parts at good prices. As for used transmission... Well 800 bucks minimum isn't exactly worth it to me for something that's prob already mildly damaged... These transmissions are known for this bearing failure and 2nd gear issues. So I don't see why I should do that anymore. A year ago I did. I didn't wanna deal with it. But now, I'd rather rebuild.

Gawd that's soo cool of you.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

Erik Johnson · 08-11-2016, 12:49 PM

I can help you with the parts that you are going to need for this.

We work on these all the time, and I would be happy to help.

Give me a call. I can see some of the damage already. I can send you anything you need.

Happy to help,

Erik Johnson
The Race Line
(720) 899-6005 phone

Gelbster · 08-11-2016, 03:00 PM

Josh,
Glad you found it useful to receive all that info. Please let us all read your promise in return to publish you DIY with photos and I can offer more.
As you mentioned, we need to share all the secrets, not jealously guard them. There will still be plenty of work for the few companies who repair these gearboxes. Most Forum members want to learn the secrets to learn/understand what the repair involves before they pay well over $1000 for a job. An insignificant number of people actually have all the tools.equipment,time and guts to try to repair one of these gearboxes.
Erik Johnson is one of the few who understand this and generously share info. Some of his less transparent competitors then disparage his technical credentials. Very short sighted imho.
A "transmission guy"may be a problem because this car is different ! Ask Erik about such experienced transmission guys who when extracting or pressing on the bearings buckle or damage the shaft ! It is hollow ,as you will see. Hence the need for the insert tool. And the heat- freeze tricks.
The problem is that a 20 tonne press or puller may exert more force than the hollow shaft can withstand. And you can only remove replace 2-3 times(per Getrag) before the shaft must be replaced.
Another debatable issue - the new bearings - remove their grease seals ?? The new seals will fail eventually,as yours have. The failed seals are unfortunately still good enough to exclude gearbox oil so ironically the bearing fails from lack of lubrication despite being in an oily environment(sound familiar to the IMSB ?)
The other overlooked issue is the frequency of oil changes for the gearbox and the correct oil.There are many cars that have the original fill in there and have 100,000++ miles !And /or they get GL4 as the refill !!
But those issues for another Thread :-)
Ask here how many people would like to buy copies of the NickHend insert tool ? Nick did a great service by taking the time to share his experience:
http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/945482-996-transmission-rebuild-and-pinion-bearing-replacement-diy.html

DarkStar · 08-11-2016, 08:31 PM

Yeah I'm guessing my fluid hasn't been changed. Like I first mentioned if it weren't for the random oil leak due to the media blasting, I wouldn't have known how horribly bad my fluid was. And it wouldn't have lead me this far. Right now she'll be serviced just by new fluids. But I'll estimate by Winter time I will tear it down. So I can take my time.

About to respond to Erik's PM now.

DarkStar · 08-11-2016, 08:55 PM

Oh and I mean a "Transmission guy"... As in a high skilled and trained Master ASE Tech who works for me. Not some guy I know... lol. I understand hearing someone say "I know a guy" or something of the sort kinda can seem far fetched.

But My resume goes as far as being a owner/operator ASE tech for a small automotive performance shop out in Albuquerque, NM. The people I know, lots of them build cars for hobby, repair and maintain cars for a living. Some work under me. I even know Engineers with a vast list of exotic tools like CNC Machines, Plasma Cutting Tables and 3D Scanners but spend their spare time designing and building custom one off parts for Exotic cars. These aren't your everyday "my dad is a mechanic" people.

BUT not trying to brag, just trying to get more info on my own car. I for one don't have any certifications in german vehicles. My knowledge is basic but I am not a noob hehe.

I honestly was expecting something a lil more.... outrageous. a Pole and a puller..... Not exactly the special tools I was expecting but the more I know the easier the vehicle seems to work on. Just seems the details of working on a porsche from the looks of an outsider remain a guarded secret. Everyone thinks they are super exotic on repair costs and ability to work on. But these people obviously don't know what its like to own a high hp DSM, or a built rock crawler that you stupidly wanna daily drive haha. Porsche is not hard or expensive. Maybe a lil more than some.... 70 dollar oil changes. Order only parts. Prices are pretty decent on things like spark plugs and alternators and oil filters. There is nothing special there. Vehicle has an IMS Bearing..... So do some others.

Gelbster · 08-12-2016, 07:32 AM

"Josh,
Glad you found it useful to receive all that info.
Please let us all read your promise to publish your DIY with photos.Then I can offer more."
Special tools :
The Kukko 20 ton slender arm puller - the 2 Arm design (compared to 3 arm) seems a needless risk. AS Erik has hinted, the gears can be damaged/cracked if excessive force is used to pull them off the shaft. Perhaps a Bearing Puller/Splitter attachment is a better tool? I presume it would need modification to fit. You have the resources to do that !
https://www.amazon.com/Sunex-52BS-Bearing-Splitter/dp/B000SOSHAI/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1471015858&sr=1-6
Erik may have some helpful suggestions about this?

robertgray1 · 08-12-2016, 07:48 AM

Brilliant thread! very informational! I'm really thinking about buying one of these cars but I'm not too sure where to go with it though, what are the common issues with the car (if any) or is there a part that needs regular maintinace? went Servicing Stop with my car the other day and spoke to them and they gave me abit more of an insight on these cars (they know me, been using them for years) but need abit more help.

Gelbster · 08-12-2016, 07:56 AM

Robert Gray1,
1 post and you ask generic ,questions w/o reading any FAQ's or Buyer's Guide. Trolling perhaps or promoting your link?

DarkStar · 08-12-2016, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelbster

"Josh,
Glad you found it useful to receive all that info.
Please let us all read your promise to publish your DIY with photos.Then I can offer more."
Special tools :
The Kukko 20 ton slender arm puller - the 2 Arm design (compared to 3 arm) seems a needless risk. AS Erik has hinted, the gears can be damaged/cracked if excessive force is used to pull them off the shaft. Perhaps a Bearing Puller/Splitter attachment is a better tool? I presume it would need modification to fit. You have the resources to do that !
https://www.amazon.com/Sunex-52BS-Bearing-Splitter/dp/B000SOSHAI/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1471015858&sr=1-6
Erik may have some helpful suggestions about this?

I'll definitely do what I can. I'll video it if need be. Go live on Facebook haha jk. I'm definitely a photo wh*re... I shoot everything but myself lol but I'll gladly shoot all pics and info I can find.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

Gelbster · 08-12-2016, 08:35 AM

Josh.
Thank you. I am sure your contribution will become a Star entry in the DIY section.
If you need help with dimensions or photos,let me know. I have 2 of these gearboxes awaiting repair in my garage. [QUOTE=DarkStar;506376]I'll definitely do what I can. I'll video it if need be. Go live on Facebook haha jk. I'm definitely a photo wh*re... I shoot everything but myself lol but I'll gladly shoot all pics and info I can find.