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Old 01-03-2015, 08:21 AM   #1
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Will Porsche ever be independent of VW again?

Title says it all.

Changing a cabin air filter on the Touareg and all the venting parts have PORSCHE and VW all over them.

Just dreaming?

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Old 01-03-2015, 09:24 AM   #2
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Very few companies are independent these days. We are pretty lucky honestly, Volvo is owned by the Chinese, jaguar and Land Rover have quality issues that are even worse than before Tata, fiat Chysler is a culmination of all things unreliable each side of the Atlantic.

The new maserati is a hyped up over priced charger, and every lancia (a once great brand) is now just a rebadged Chysler.

Maybe porsche will be independent some day, they have the profit that they could, not to mention Porsche (not the automaker) owns VW. So regardless they have a fair share of independence.
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Old 01-03-2015, 12:26 PM   #3
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I too wish Porsche was independent. Never gonna happen with the best bottom line in the business. Such a shame. Much of the current Porsche makes me gag as their need to make more $$$ is SO obvious. Just look at the big push they've got going about how swell winter driving your Porsche can be. End result is Porsche's are 'less special' everyday. No wonder folks hold onto to the aircooled tighter everyday...
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Old 01-03-2015, 01:03 PM   #4
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I too wish Porsche was independent. Never gonna happen with the best bottom line in the business. Such a shame. Much of the current Porsche makes me gag as their need to make more $$$ is SO obvious. Just look at the big push they've got going about how swell winter driving your Porsche can be. End result is Porsche's are 'less special' everyday. No wonder folks hold onto to the aircooled tighter everyday...
Ekam posted about this several months back, for those not in the know the article he referenced was beyond eye opening as to what / why things went the way they did for Porsche:

http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/54701-porsche-hedge-fund-also-made-cars.html

While I do agree with Perfectlap that the current air cooled market may be unwarranted or a bubble (especially since everything built since then is more comfortable and performs better) I also grudgingly agree with many of the arrogant "Purists" that the evolution into mass production / sharing components or entire sub-assemblies that the 986 / 996 series introduced really watered down the sports car concoction in the name of pure profitability. Seeing the current sales figures for Porsche regarding SUV's vs. Sports Cars only reinforces that stance. It has IMO made the marque that much less special.

A video that summarizes it all IMO, around the 2:40 mark...."Looking for things that weren't created to be something to everyone, but EVERYTHING to someone"


Last edited by coreseller; 01-03-2015 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 01-03-2015, 01:44 PM   #5
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I too wish Porsche was independent. Never gonna happen with the best bottom line in the business. Such a shame. Much of the current Porsche makes me gag as their need to make more $$$ is SO obvious. Just look at the big push they've got going about how swell winter driving your Porsche can be. End result is Porsche's are 'less special' everyday. No wonder folks hold onto to the aircooled tighter everyday...
Independent or not, they would still have an owner, and that owner would probably like to make MONEY. Porsche is a business, plain and simple. It's goal is to make the most appealing products in order to sell the most product.
Fortunately, for the most part, they are still producing some of the best vehicles around. The 911 is still the vehicle other sports cars are measured against and the Macan is an amazing sport suv.
Porsche is still at the top of the heap, IMO.
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Old 01-03-2015, 03:23 PM   #6
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In the late '90s the common platforms and the Boxster saved Porsche. Porsche focused its limited resources on what it could do well to differentiate its product in function and image.

Who cares if a heater motor or O2 sensor was made by someone else or shared. Let alone filters, brakes, switch gear, etc. Better to spread procurement costs, use proven parts, reduce warranty claims, and increase customer satisfaction than control everything especially with a relatively small base of sales to support individuality for the sake of individuality. The profits can be invested in the next generation thus assuring we have something interesting to choose. And paid out to stockholders for taking the risk.

Not that I haven't thought there are too many VW-group models, a worry I also have about every manufacturer. The product planners listen to every dealer's whine over not having something to fill a niche and how many sales they might have lost. When I think how little the last car sales guy knew about my most recent purchase, I shudder. Not to mention how few examples of a specific model they had on the lot. I go back to the days of GM and their 5 divisions and each division had to have something slightly different but in every niche even if they were pretty much the same.

I owned a VW Type 3, Type 4 and 914. They were all poor in terms of product quality. My Boxsters were wonderfully reliable. I'll take shared platforms and parts.
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Old 01-03-2015, 05:38 PM   #7
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Old 01-03-2015, 07:54 PM   #8
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To be honest I wish the 981 and 987 front end even stuck with the looks of the 911, I wish the cars still looked the same from the front haha, sure 911 guys don't like that though. The square lights on the 981 look too italian if you ask me, not very porsche.
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Old 01-04-2015, 04:55 AM   #9
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Is being owned by VW hurting Porsche?
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:04 AM   #10
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Is being owned by VW hurting Porsche?
No.

That Porsche will ever be independent again is nothing but a dream. While independent they came close to going under a couple of times and the auto manufacturing business has only become tougher since then Look at history and there are more manufacters that have disappeared or been absorbed by others then I can count. Being part of the VW family isn't bad. To me their just family due to their history. It was Porsche who developed the Beetle.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:25 AM   #11
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Have just purchased a VW Gulf waggon for my wife and I must say it is a great vehicle.
Had reservations about the motor being only 1.4 but being turbo has an amazing amount of grunt. Finish is great and it has all the bells and whistles. Economy is amazing averages about six litres per 100 ks, and with petrol at $1.40 per litre most economical. After having seven P cars myself and my wife having numerous other jap cars I don't have a problem with Porsche being associated with VW.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:27 AM   #12
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At least there's no VW-badged Boxsters or 911's yet....And then there's Aston Martins--most are dressed up Jags, built on the same assembly line. A 2001 Aston was 98% the same car as the Jag XKR yet the price was about double! And people bought them...
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:15 PM   #13
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Porsche being owned by VW;

The mostly good:
  • Easy access to modern manufacturing tools, processes, equipment, and facilities.
  • Easy access to engineering tools, processes, equipment, and facilities
  • Financial resources to fund lots and lots of new models
  • Financial resources to weather severe economic downturns
  • Financial resources to fund halo vehicles/projects that may not payback on their own (918??)
  • Financial resources to take risks and not jeopardize the viability of the company
  • Increase in engineering resources to support other VAG projects
The maybe not so good;
  • VW now runs the Porsche show - Porsche must do what the VW Board says to do.
  • VW Board may make poor decisions regarding sports cars since they are not a sports car company
  • VW Board may not be willing to take any chances/risks since they do not share Porsche's history
  • VW Board may siphon off top Porsche engineering talent to other brands
  • Porsche engineers not happy/may leave company if forced to work on VW projects (imagine being an engineer who was finally hired by Porsche.... and then being assigned to the new Jetta project)
  • VG-wide shared platform engineering (Q5 is the basis for the Maccan)
  • VG parts bin engineering (why design a new Porsche part when we have existing VW or Audi parts?)
  • Financial resources to develop non-sports car models (brand dilution)
  • Potential loss of exclusivity
  • Potential loss of brand value
  • Additional costs of intra-corporation duplicity (Audi's racing against Porsche's)
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Last edited by thstone; 01-04-2015 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:46 PM   #14
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Porsche being owned by VW;

The mostly good:
  • Easy access to modern manufacturing tools, processes, equipment, and facilities.
  • Easy access to engineering tools, processes, equipment, and facilities
  • Financial resources to fund lots and lots of new models
  • Financial resources to weather severe economic downturns
  • Financial resources to fund halo vehicles/projects that may not payback on their own (918??)
  • Financial resources to take risks and not jeopardize the viability of the company
  • Increase in engineering resources to support other VAG projects
The maybe not so good;
  • VW now runs the Porsche show - Porsche must do what the VW Board says to do.
  • VW Board may make poor decisions regarding sports cars since they are not a sports car company
  • VW Board may not be willing to take any chances/risks since they do not share Porsche's history
  • VW Board may siphon off top Porsche engineering talent to other brands
  • Porsche engineers not happy/may leave company if forced to work on VW projects (imagine being an engineer who was finally hired by Porsche.... and then being assigned to the new Jetta project)
  • VG-wide shared platform engineering (Q5 is the basis for the Maccan)
  • VG parts bin engineering (why design a new Porsche part when we have existing VW or Audi parts?)
  • Financial resources to develop non-sports car models (brand dilution)
  • Potential loss of exclusivity
  • Potential loss of brand value
  • Additional costs of intra-corporation duplicity (Audi's racing against Porsche's)

Tom hit the nail on the head IMO with the Bold quotes above. The aura of what was once Porsche is likely gone forever. Don't get me wrong, VW will likely exercise it's presence and produce one helluva 911 / Boxster, but please refer to the video I posted above, it will never be an "Authentic" Porsche as Ferdinand would have envisioned.
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Old 01-04-2015, 01:22 PM   #15
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To be honest I wish the 981 and 987 front end even stuck with the looks of the 911, I wish the cars still looked the same from the front haha, sure 911 guys don't like that though. The square lights on the 981 look too italian if you ask me, not very porsche.
Got to agree with you here Jake. They look more Mitsubishi to me. 2004 Eclipse like. Well kinda... That's the only thing I don't like though. Stick to the roots!


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Old 01-04-2015, 01:42 PM   #16
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"VW now runs the Porsche show - Porsche must do what the VW Board says to do.
VW Board may make poor decisions regarding sports cars since they are not a sports car company
VW Board may not be willing to take any chances/risks since they do not share Porsche's history
VW Board may siphon off top Porsche engineering talent to other brands
Porsche engineers not happy/may leave company if forced to work on VW projects (imagine being an engineer who was finally hired by Porsche.... and then being assigned to the new Jetta project)
VG-wide shared platform engineering (Q5 is the basis for the Maccan)
VG parts bin engineering (why design a new Porsche part when we have existing VW or Audi parts?)
Financial resources to develop non-sports car models (brand dilution)
Potential loss of exclusivity
Potential loss of brand value
Additional costs of intra-corporation duplicity (Audi's racing against Porsche's)"

Other than the possible parts sharing and shared platform engineering I've seen no evidence that VW is slowing down Porsche development. The new GTS series Boxsters and Caymans, the upcoming GT4 series Cayman (possibly a Boxster) and the ongoing testing of the new 718 four cylinder Boxster/Cayman. If anything it appears that Porsche is blossoming in development of new and better sports cars and sports sedans/SUVs as well as having the funds to get back into serious racing again.
My '99 Boxster has a Tiptronic trans made by MB and had a Japanese made IMS and the LN ceramic bearing that replaced it is also made in Japan. The list of parts, on my Box, that are made from third party suppliers goes on and on but it still has the Porsche badge on front and handles like any other Porsche on the road. The purists can turn their noses up but don't think for one minute those air cooled Porsches didn't have their share of problems either from poor engineering or poor quality manufacturing. Those two inherent issues in the AC models were one of the major reasons Porsche sales dwindled to the point that it took our Boxsters and 996's to keep them in business and having Porsche around is better than not.

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