Tony Stewart hits rival driver, kills him in Sprint car race..

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Timco

If you watch the full video of that incident you see that after TS throws his helmet the NASCAR official gently pats him on the back. Apparently Tony wears the pants. .

And for the record Stewart is far from being my least favorite driver in that series.
I actually used to listen to his Sirius radio show. Put it this way if I won a contest to have five drivers over for a barbecue he'd be #1. And #2 would be whatever driver he currently likes the least.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

.... it was proposed that he goosed it while flicking the steering to try and kick the rear tires away from the victim.

Exactly what I said in my previous post, as an experienced driver, that was his only option to prevent Ward getting hit by the back wheel. Only "an experienced driver" would have think of reacting as such and I believe TS being one of those with exp

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

But why was he on high side of the track to begin with? At this point we can all see that other cars kept to the inside. What was Stewart doing up there? That question needs to answered.

Its funny what little video can do. What you are missing is the most important part of this incident. That 1~2 seconds before e.g. the moment when TS goes 'WTF is this kid doing "in the middle" of the track'. Clearly TS had to go up the track trying to avoid a front collision with him.... that's why you see Ward backing up and climbing the up track just before.

[Nine8Six]

Hard to be rich, good and famous all at the same time theses days Any incident, little or big, people, media, "will use" with passion and in hope to ruin the person involved.... looking at the past.... leaving blood on the floor etc etc

that helmet thing has nothing to do with what is currently happening guys

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

Hard to be rich, good and famous all at the same time theses days Any incident, little or big, people, media, "will use" with passion and in hope to ruin the person involved.... looking at the past.... leaving blood on the floor etc etc

that helmet thing has nothing to do with what is currently happening guys

Just like tipping someone's car is just bored kids and shows no criminal tendencies.

Both incidents show a pattern when cataloged with the other similar acts they perform. If both were isolated incidents, the media would have no gas for their fire. Together, they form a pattern. Courts use these collective actions to show patterns that they believe fit a crime or negligent act in question all the time, and I am fine with this. That, however, does not mean this (KW incident) was intentional or an example of his attitude in any way. I have never raced, don't think the rev heard on the video is with all certainty his, don't see him throw the rear towards the kid, and am not convinced by the video he is criminally negligent. Possibly a top-lane pass by to gloat, but not to harm anyone. Contributory at most, but that is just my opinion.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by Timco

Just like tipping someone's car is just bored kids and shows no criminal tendencies.

Both incidents show a pattern when cataloged with the other similar acts they perform. If both were isolated incidents, the media would have no gas for their fire. Together, they form a pattern. Courts use these collective actions to show patterns that they believe fit a crime or negligent act in question all the time, and I am fine with this. That, however, does not mean this (KW incident) was intentional or an example of his attitude in any way. I have never raced, don't think the rev heard on the video is with all certainty his, don't see him throw the rear towards the kid, and am not convinced by the video he is criminally negligent. Possibly a top-lane pass by to gloat, but not to harm anyone. Contributory at most, but that is just my opinion.

What Courts? the 986forum court?

Be serious for an instant. Courts makes judgment based on "previous criminal convictions".... not just patterns.

If you are right tho (god bless us all) I really hope for that rich & famous TS boy they will carry a throughout investigation on the helmet thing as well e.g. why he thrown it at first place, the real reason behind, "a real court judgment", etc. LOL

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

What Courts? the 986forum court?

Be serious for an instant. Courts makes judgment based on "previous criminal convictions".... not just patterns.

If you are right tho (god bless us all) I really hope for that rich & famous TS boy they will carry a throughout investigation on the helmet thing as well e.g. why he thrown it at first place, the real reason behind, "a real court judgment", etc. LOL

OK. I'm serious.

Patterns of reckless behavior are admissible, I'm afraid. Does not need to be criminal convictions. He was fined for the helmet incident.

A court of law. People on this site are entitled to their opinions, and entitled to share them. If yours differs, well, that's life.

I've got nothing against you, bro. You're doing things I wish I was doing, and drive a very nice Box. I just see the above mentioned examples differently. While he indeed may not have intended any harm, his past actions suggest he is capable of losing his temper and acting irrationally. Him contributing to the kids death through a moment of poor decision is not too far fetched. And there is the civil suit. I doubt any criminal action can be proven to 12.

[jsceash]

I continue to be astonished about the number of irrational comments made by people who in my opinion have never been to a dirt track or seen a sprint car up close, or seen one raced in real life.

The car them selves have little to know side view even if you not in a helmet or buckled in. They have a very large end plate on the wing on the right side that hangs down, and then a net, then add the HANS so you can't hardly turn your head, and helmet side rest you can basically see in front of you and 10 to 15 degrees to either side. Last the right side rear tire hangs out almost but not quite, 1/2 the total car width, and can't be seen by the driver. The cock pit is just big enough for the drivers seat and driver. The drive shaft runs right between the drivers calf's, just under his nutz so to speak. There is a big tire size difference from the right side to left side tires which also makes the car miserable to drive slowly, but they accelerate like a drag car. BTW they cant be driven to slowly either, the limit is about 20, they stall and have to pushed to be started.

The track should have thrown a red flag as soon as the the driver was on the track and didn't!!! My guess is they didn't see him or didn't have time to respond either.

KW got out walked along his car, then ran down the track several lanes almost clipped by the first driver step back then came down again as TS approached. 2 to 3 lanes down from Kw's disabled car.

In sprints like all other forms of racing, in yellow the track is still HOT, the car are prohibited from PASSING only, and that doesn't mean they can't or don't run at high rates of speed in an effort to close ranks and compress the field and move up and down the race line in order to align them selves in the correct running order. This can be seen at a dirt track near you every Friday, Saturday, or Sunday night.

TS was at least 2 lane and possibly 3 below the accident which means he did give way. Could he have been lower maybe but a car had just changed up below him. as he approached KW which he moved up from.

I doubt TS saw KW walking down until it was too late. At that point you are focused on the cars around you, and lining back into your correct position.

Iv'e been around dirt tracks most of my life, doubt it look up Eash in PA dirt tracking. This is nothing more than a tragic accident. In the end I have no doubt Tony and the track will be sued.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by jsceash

I continue to be astonished about the number of irrational comments made by people who in my opinion have never been to a dirt track or seen a sprint car up close, or seen one raced in real life.

The car them selves have little to know side view even if you not in a helmet or buckled in. They have a very large end plate on the wing on the right side that hangs down, and then a net, then add the HANS so you can't hardly turn your head, and helmet side rest you can basically see in front of you and 10 to 15 degrees to either side. Last the right side rear tire hangs out almost but not quite, 1/2 the total car width, and can't be seen by the driver. The cock pit is just big enough for the drivers seat and driver. The drive shaft runs right between the drivers calf's, just under his nutz so to speak. There is a big tire size difference from the right side to left side tires which also makes the car miserable to drive slowly, but they accelerate like a drag car. BTW they cant be driven to slowly either, the limit is about 20, they stall and have to pushed to be started.

The track should have thrown a red flag as soon as the the driver was on the track and didn't!!! My guess is they didn't see him or didn't have time to respond either.

KW got out walked along his car, then ran down the track several lanes almost clipped by the first driver step back then came down again as TS approached. 2 to 3 lanes down from Kw's disabled car.

In sprints like all other forms of racing, in yellow the track is still HOT, the car are prohibited from PASSING only, and that doesn't mean they can't or don't run at high rates of speed in an effort to close ranks and compress the field and move up and down the race line in order to align them selves in the correct running order. This can be seen at a dirt track near you every Friday, Saturday, or Sunday night.

TS was at least 2 lane and possibly 3 below the accident which means he did give way. Could he have been lower maybe but a car had just changed up below him. as he approached KW which he moved up from.

I doubt TS saw KW walking down until it was too late. At that point you are focused on the cars around you, and lining back into your correct position.

Iv'e been around dirt tracks most of my life, doubt it look up Eash in PA dirt tracking. This is nothing more than a tragic accident. In the end I have no doubt Tony and the track will be sued.

You think it's irrational to point that of the cars that managed to stay as far as possible from the disabled car TS was not one of them?

And why did the other drivers manage this and not TS? Because precisely of what you describe, acknowledgement that there is poor visibility during a night race, inherently poor visibility from a sprint car cockpit, and recognition that there are track workers walking on the track as well as driving on ATVs. You can either drive as safely as is within your control or you don't. Some drivers did this and some didn't, unfortunately for TS he's one of those that didn't and was the one that ended up running over the guy that died.

[jsceash]

If you want to sensationalize at least get your facts straight. I've seen two posted videos of the events that night. Neither showed track worker on the track until after Ward was hit. Neither showed an ATV on track until after the accident where Ward was hit. Both showed that Ward ran down 2 to 3 lanes below his disabled car on the track. One showed TS bobbing around another car prior to the impact, both showed him about one lane up past the lower racing line berm mostly because of the other car.

Routinely there are four wheelers on a dirt track with sprints under yellow. They push start the cars which then fly off at speeds up to 100MPH after starting in order to clear excess fuel and catch back up to the rest of the field.

Why would TS have any animosity toward this kid? The video showed him touch tires as he was passing Ward. Ward front right caught the outside berm which threw him into the wall causing the spin. I've seen the same accident hundreds of times, at 20 or more different tracks. The difference last Saturday is that KW got out of his car and basically ran into the racing line in front of oncoming cars. If you did the same on 95 at night what do you think the outcome would be.

Your answer will probably be you know better.

[gmboxster]

TS has a reputation as an ill tempered hot head. No one is disputing that. However the bottom line is that kid should have Never exited his car. If that weren't bad enough he goes down the track one or two lanes INTO traffic. I have no bias whatsoever. I dont watch car racing but logic dictates Never, ever get out of your car in that situation. Like someone else said ,, try crossing I-95 at night in a black suit and see what happens. In my humble opinion this was just a tragic accident brought on by extremely poor judgement on that kid's part.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by jsceash

If you want to sensationalize at least get your facts straight. I've seen two posted videos of the events that night. Neither showed track worker on the track until after Ward was hit.

C'mon! those track workers arrived seconds after KW was run over. Meaning they were already on their way to the disabled car and you could clearly tell from their reaction and where they parked the tow truck that they were not expecting to find a body right there. How is that sensationalizing? TS knew the track workers were on the way if not already on the track but chose to go higher up the track and at a faster speed than the cars that played it as safe as possible. As a result of his actions and ceratinly KW's there was no margin for error.

But I'm still unclear as to why TS wasn't driving to the inside like the other cars? In TS's book does safety go down a notch if it means losing a small time race for a $500 prize?

[Burg Boxster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

C'mon! those track workers arrived seconds after KW was run over. Meaning they were already on their way to the disabled car and you could clearly tell from their reaction and the manner that they parked the tow truck that they were not expecting to find a body. How is that sensationalizing? TS knew the track workers were on the way if not already on the track but chose to go higher up the track and at a faster speed than the cars that played it as safe as possible. As a result of his actions and KW's there was no margin for error.

Can't have it both ways PL... Workers didn't, yet TS w/ very limited and much more restricted peripheral vision was expected to see a person in a black suit w/ a black helmet on a dimly lit hot track in active lanes of traffic. Watch the video after TS impacted KW and you'll see other cars on similar line...

Red flag should have IMMEDIATELY been thrown the second KW stepped onto track... let alone when he deliberately walked into traffic. The corner workers in the finger lakes region are some of the sharpest I've ever encountered anywhere yet they (and track workers as you cite above) and TS missed KW on track...

Could TS have done more to try and avoid running KW over? Possibly, but his options and reaction window were more than limited. Much like the Malucelli & Gidley crash at 24hr of Daytona this year.

Tragic yet preventable loss and a conversation we wouldn't even be having had KW stayed in vehicle on a hot track

[runjmc2]

Originally Posted by ianacole

Sprint Car racers give their take on tragedy and defend Tony Stewart | News | Motorsport.com

The following posted comment on the above link is consistent with what I saw, makes sense, and is from an experienced source:

"I am not a Tony Stewart fan or hater. I spent more than 9 years as a dirt track speedway official so my observations and comments are formulated from more of a black and white viewpoint rather than as an untrained fan. I saw lots of circumstances like this over the years as an official. Thankfully none of them ended up in tragedy, especially the time a sprint driver hit me, on purpose, while on the track with my line up board. I always adhered to a strict policy of white pants, red shirt even when the track did not require it.

I can tell you to start with that if you watch the beginning of the video close, you will see that Tony's sprint car never touched Kevin's. He made a clean pass. Kevin slightly overreacted to being pinched and did not lift soon enough. The terrible dry track conditions allowed his car to slide up into the wall causing the wreck and caution. These guys can see out of their cars good enough to see across the track out the front. I can not prove this, but a lot of car drivers lift their helmet shields during a caution. Whether he did or not, Tony was far enough away and making a left hand corner that he coulod see the events unfolding out the front of his car. It's a pretty safe bet that he saw Kevin exit his car up in front of him.

There is an aspect of this situation that I am not hearing anyone talking about. If Tony knew he made a clean pass on Kevin yet Kevin still hit the wall, seeing Kevin exit his car the way he did would give Tony a feeling of being falsely accused. I have seen many occasions where a racer expresses his feelings with his throttle pedal. If he yells, no one can hear him, but race car engines are loud and blipping the throttle gets attention. If Tony was feeling falsely accused for the caution, then it would not be out of the ordinary for a racer in his position express his emotion with a blip of his throttle and maybe even to shoot some dirt toward Kevin's location. Where we come into the big conflict here the question of whether or not Tony saw Kevin walking on the track. It appears that Kevin first mistook the white and blue 45 car for Tony's and stepped in front of that car to get the driver's attention. Realizing his mistake, he jumped back slightly and refocused on the next car coming down the track which was Tony's. Clearly, the driver of the 45 could see Kevin and his statement to that fact when relayed to the investigator will not work in Tony's favor. You can see that driver react with his steering wheel, not his throttle, to avoid hitting Kevin. Tony could have done the same. I have watched a lot of drivers with throttle steer setups steer around things with their steering wheel. Tony could have done that. He could have also passed by the scene much lower on the track, down by the tires and at a slower pace.

Kevin grabbed Tony's wing if you watch the video real close. I would expect that Tony's heat of the moment reaction was to "Get Kevin Off My Car" and blipped the throttle not realizing that Kevin at that very moment was getting sucked under Tony's tire. I believe it is a safe assumption that Tony never in any way intended to hurt Kevin, however, Tony's track position, speed and history of displays of anger will not play well in to his case. He still may face charges. God be with you, Tony and Kevin's family, friends and fans. "

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Burg Boxster

Can't have it both ways PL... Workers didn't, yet TS w/ very limited and much more restricted peripheral vision was expected to see a person in a black suit w/ a black helmet on a dimly lit hot track in active lanes of traffic. Watch the video after TS impacted KW and you'll see other cars on similar line...

Red flag should have IMMEDIATELY been thrown the second KW stepped onto track... let alone when he deliberately walked into traffic. The corner workers in the finger lakes region are some of the sharpest I've ever encountered anywhere yet they (and track workers as you cite above) and TS missed KW on track...

Could TS have done more to try and avoid running KW over? Possibly, but his options and reaction window were more than limited. Much like the Malucelli & Gidley crash at 24hr of Daytona this year.

Tragic yet preventable loss and a conversation we wouldn't even be having had KW stayed in vehicle on a hot track

Doesn't matter if some other cars were on a similar line. That wasn't the safest line. Which is the whole point. A seasoned NASACAR veteran, who has experienced on-track fatalities first hand, and more than once, should only be on the safest line during a caution.

KW would probably have walked further into the track so maybe it's a moot point.
The more important answer will come when, and if we ever see Stewart's on-board footage to determine if like other driver hinted, that TS could see Ward on foot yet still chose to go high. That's the critical piece of evidence.

[Giller]

“Tony Stewart was the best damn driver by far on the track that night. Why he had to go up as high as he did and hog my son, there’s no reason for it.”

“Apparently, Tony Stewart was the only one driving out there who didn’t see him,” Ward told the newspaper.

“The one person that knows what happened that night is possibly facing 10 years in prison. Is he going to say what he done?”

The above quotes were all made by Kevin Ward SR - so they are coming from a very emotional person who is definitely angry at TS. But he does make some very good points.

Again though, I go back to my original statement - there is lots of blame to go around. No one is without guilt here - TS, KW jr, NASCAR, the track itself.....

And believe it or not - we aren't going to solve anything by arguing about it here.

[southernstar]

I would be very surprised if the prosecution would be allowed, under the Rules of Evidence in New York State, to tender evidence of Stewart's prior misconduct, including engaging in fights with fellow drivers, or entering the racing surface to throw his helmet at a fellow competitor. Even prior criminal convictions can only be tendered if the accused testifies, or if he attempts to lead evidence of his good character; in the latter case, under Article 60 of the NY Code, only evidence of convictions relavent to the issue of his character in disupte are admissable. What is more, it is only the fact of the conviction itself that is admissable (and not the facts of the previous offence that led to the convictioni).

Brad

[Burg Boxster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Doesn't matter if some other cars were on a similar line. That wasn't the safest line. Which is the whole point. A seasoned NASACAR veteran, who has experienced on-track fatalities first hand, and more than once, should only be on the safest line during a caution.

KW would probably have walked further into the track so maybe it's a moot point.
The more important answer will come when, and if we ever see Stewart's on-board footage to determine if like other driver hinted, that TS could see Ward on foot yet still chose to go high. That's the critical piece of evidence.

Well, KW clearly stepped back from first car/driver which either did not see or could not avoid him... yet continued down afterwards.

This whole thread would be moot had KW stayed in his vehicle...

Believe, I'm horrified at a senseless and tragic loss of life occurring in a sport we all enjoy in many different facets.

[thstone]

I'll be the first to admit that I know a lot about NASCAR but nothing about dirt track racing...

[Nine8Six]

^ I am one of those millions, if not billions, who is an expert in dirt tracks! I knew from a very young age that I would need to tackled many dirty roads.

So I got this as my first track dedicated vehicle:

[Nine8Six]

Support the sport and its members. It was an unfortunate accident. Peace