986 2.5L vs 996 3.4L Comparison

[southernstar]

Perfectlap, this thread concerned comparisons between the 986 and 996 and the production numbers from post#10 in this thread show the relative sales of the two models from one source (as well as the 997 versus 987 Boxster and Cayman). Since the 2002 revision to the 996, it and the 997 have outsold (and often dramatically outsold) the 986 and 987 Boxsters. Prior to that, at least from 1999 to 2001, the 986 was outselling the 996. Something brought about that shift in preference by the buyers of Porsche sportcars - and as subsequent numbers show, it is a preference that has remained constant since 2002 in spite of economic peaks and valleys.

The only price I was able to find for the new C71 Corvette Stingray Convertible with the Z51 package showed a base price of $59,795.00 (with an additional $595.00 for red-painted calipers, if we want to compare the Boxster S with the Stingray). Orders are still not being taken, but no one is expecting discounting for some time. The list price in the USA for the 2013 Boxster S is $60,900.00 and most purchasers are now able to negotiate a discount. So from what I can see, the out-the-door prices are essentially a wash.

I agree totally with the outrageous price of various Porsche options (and suggested that one needs to option wisely). As to the track numbers that you refer to, I am not aware of a C7 Corvette Convertible with the Z51 package having been tested on any track; indeed, in some reports up until about a month ago, there were suggestions that the z51 package would not be available in the convertible as it lacks the factory rollbar that is required for track work (and which the new 981 Boxster has as standard - and at a height that will not require rollbar extensions as on the 986). If it was a test of the coupe, then I am sure that you'll agree the convertible will be slower as:
1. the convertible will be heavier than the coupe;
2. the convertible will have to add even more weight (and weight up high, where it will effect the Cg) by the requirement to add a rollbar for the track work that you refer to.
3. the chassis on the couple will be stiffer than the convertible, improving ultimate handling and precision.
4. the coupe will likely have better aerodynamics than the convertible, even with the top up.

If we are to compare apples and apples, then surely we must compare the Boxster (a convertible) with the Stingray convertible. Nevertheless, while no doubt slower than the coupe, I still anticipate that the Stingray convertible will be faster on track than the Boxster S. I said as much in my earlier post. However, I still maintain that it is a relatively blunt instrument which puts up better numbers with its larger, but less fuel efficient engine and with larger standard wheels and tires compensating for a relatively primitive suspension ( I mean, a transverse leaf spring????). I also expect that it will be less comfortable to drive in the real world and that it will eventually develop the usual fiberglass body groans and rattles.

You may (and apparently do) prefer the new Stingray to the 981 Boxster S and, if ultimate lap times are your main priortiy, I can understand why. Others will have opinions and priorities that vary.

Brad

[Perfectlap]

GM are eager to take on Porsche, they've already identified Porsche as their biggest target. With a head-spinning number of Porsches for each model on offer, GM know they will have to cater to every type of buyer. You want a Stingray roadster with the biggest engine. Fine, what color do you want? You want a stick to stir? No problem we won't shoehorn you into automatics only (aka PDK).

p.s.
If an old school suspension and old school engine is/will be beating the pants off $200K Porsches at the N-ring, where you MUST have scalpel-like execution, over a very long distance, to be the fastest well then what does that say?
Also, I'm not so sure about your contention that the Corvette will not be fuel efficient for a car that is substantially faster than an over-priced (imo) Porsche roadster. I guess you can justify the Porsche tax on subjective grounds then its not over-priced. But spec'ing performance upgrades (in league with Stingray upgrades) to any Porsche no longer puts you into $50-$60K range. In fact, pretty un-performing upgrades to 981 S will put you into a price range that borders on drunken sailor spending.

Now to be clear, I'm not saying I would prefer a Stingray convertible to a 981S (I'd go tin top on the Chevy, not convertible too big to feel like a roadster). I'm merely debating the point of "what are you really getting for that Porsche tax".
I think folks have been blindly justifying a premium that isn't making the cars any quicker and they're not keeping Lexus up at night on reliability. Over-paying just because? Perhaps the type of buyer that Porsche is shifting towards aren't the type to really analyze value, they merely want the perception of exclusivity -- that really doesn't exist anymore, not with hundreds of thousands of Pcars for each model series rolling about. It's like a Rolex, they make over a million of them a year, the high price isn't even justifiable on the grounds of exclusivity anymore. $800 of actual watch, $4,200 of image.

[southernstar]

PS Perfectlap, I tend to agree with you about pricing when one looks at the new 991. Especially when one considers various tests of the new Cayman S which suggest that it is a better all around driver's car than the 991, I wonder if Porsche will not once again find itself in a position where the sales of the Boxster/Cayman exceed that of the 911. Even if history does not repeat itself, at the very least I expect the gap in sales to narrow substantially. The result is that any sales of the Boxster/Cayman that have been bled from the 911 will surely have the effect of cutting into Porsche's all-important profit margins.

In any event, just as in comparisons between the 986 and the original 996, only time will tell whether Porsche has let the gap in appearance, performance, driving pleasure and quality between the two models become too small to justify the substantial difference in cost. If sales figures ultimately reflect that, I have little doubt that Porsche will make adjustments so as to improve the 991, or downgrade the 981 so as to accentuate the differences. Is it any wonder, then, that Porsche is apparently considering replacing the smooth and beautiful-sounding flat 6 in the Boxster/Cayman with a turbocharged 4 cylinder? So yes, Perfectlap, I share some of your cynicism when it comes to Porsche's decisions on product development. On the other hand, I understand the profit motive and I still love the cars. And I wouldn't trade my Boxster for a Corvette, even though it would likely be faster and cheaper to maintain.

Brad

[Perfectlap]

^ Walther Rohrl was recently quoted as saying the Cayman is "easily" his choice between the Cayman and 991. I like the way he doesn't sugar coat his opinions. He made a top 10 Carreras list not long ago and he left the entire 996 series off the list. Ouch.

I don't think the Cayman/Boxster and 991 buyers are the same people.
For instance, nearly every non-Porsche owner who I know asking about buying a Porsche falls into one of two categories: If he's over 40/late 30's with little kids he needs the back seat and disqualifies the Cayman/Boxster straight away.
If he's over ~55 and the kids are out of the house, he can go either way as long as its an auto (a few exceptions but not many). In that age range, if they've already owned one Carrera they rarely upgrade to a Boxster, they want to continue with the plush Grand Touring experience.
Meanwhile a big part of the Boxster owners, either moved out of the roadster within a couple of years, either because of the impracticality or the whim simply wore off. I'd be curious to see what % of new Boxster owners are purchasing a second Boxster. Neither have I met many Boxster owners who weren't late into their 40 and 50's, contrary to popular misconception its not really a woman's car nor a young person's car. Whereas the typical Carrera owner seems to be old enough to be earning a good salary (mid-late 30's) but still far from being an empty nester. I really believe the Boxster and Carreray cater to very different drivers, certainly the repeat buyers.

p.s.
After spending over $12,000 to maintan my Boxster S, probably not much less than the car is now worth thanks to excess inventory of used Porsches, a move to Stingray or some other non-Porsche may not really be a choice. Unfortunately a Porsche is not a car one can drive for too long before relegating it to leisure time car status. Porsche is really too big, too profitable and mass produces too many cars for me to find that really acceptable. An old 964 or 911? I guess that's one thing ...at least these are cars of the extrenely limited and dwindling numbers and not of the swelling numbers ranks.

[Paul]

My 3.6 Boxster is MUCH more fun and much more forgiving to drive on the track and the twisties than my 996 Twin Turbo.

[southernstar]

I agree that as a group the potential buyers for the 911 and Boxster/Cayman are not identical, but there is obviously some overlap as thstone, the OP in this thread shows. I also believe that he is not merely the exception that proves the rule, as others here have opined that they would have purchased the 996 over the 986 if prices had been similar at the time of purchase. Indeed, prior to my purchase of a 986 I also tested a couple of 996's to see which I preferred.

I suspect that while some people would only consider a 911 (whether for status, rear jump seats, or increased comfort), and while others would only consider the Boxster/Cayman (lower price, or a preference for a mid-engined car with better transient response and turn-in), there are others who are interested in purchasing a sports car and, in many cases, a Porsche sports car specifically. For those, recent tests and the comments of Walter Rohrl and others cannot help but move some in the direction of the Boxster/Cayman. The extent to which this will bleed away sales from the 911 is yet to be determined, but we cannot overlook the fact that at one time the Boxster alone (without the hardtop Cayman version) outsold the 911.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by southernstar

I also believe that he is not merely the exception that proves the rule, as others here have opined that they would have purchased the 996 over the 986 if prices had been similar at the time of purchase..

Which is why most Boxster owners do not repeat, they really weren't 'roadster' drivers at heart. They were either A) curious, as most people are about convertibles in general, or B) in the second hand market, they made the flawed assumption that buying the Boxster itself was cheaper without taking into account the maintenance and repairs -- running a Boxster is not really any cheaper than running a water-cooled non-GT/Turbo Carrera. The Boxster requires nearly the exact same or very similar over-priced parts, expensive oil changes and specialized labor just the same. As far as convertibles, the Boxster design itself brought in customers who had thought about Porsches and finally buying a convertible merged the two dreams.

The 996 didn't have that draw, so it didn't have the 'untapped market' element of the convertible. As a result in the begining the Boxster cast a much wider sales net than the 996. Many other brands have done this with convertibles as well. Put it this way if the Cayman had been launched years before the Boxster it would not have outsold the 996. Afterall the Boxster was the first ever purpose built roadster by Porsche. Just like the Cayenne (long overdue) also had the untapped market element of the first Porsche SUV. Both Boxster and Cayenne brought in many looking for that specific vehicle type first, brand second. On the other hand the 996 draw was more about mechanical practicality. The potential for building Carrera sales numbers was better in the long term, once reliablity relative to the 'antique' Carreras, was proven. Once the convertible itch was scratched the sales figures didn't really build the same way, if they increased at all. Also why Carrera owners are much more likely to be repeat Carrera buyers than Boxster owners. And the enormous supply of 996/997 means that even if the new 991 Carreras are not to the coupe drivers' liking they have plenty, really endless variations, of water-cooled Carrera options at significant discounts. And as we know, most of those are recreational drivers who arent' really interested in the performance advantages of a mid-engine car. Certainly not if means being in a less comfortable, less practical car.

[southernstar]

Interesting analysis and you may be right. On the other hand, I still believe that many purchasers of the 986 Boxster did so not just because it was a Porsche and a roadster (there were also Miatas and BMW's and by 2000, Honda roadsters), but because it was a mid-engined Porsche roadster with styling cues that referred back to the great mid-engined racing Porsches of the 50's; and. because it was very close in appearance and performance to the pre-2002 996. If it was merely a matter of merging the desire for a Porsche and a roadster, then one would have expected the 944 S2 roadster to have sold in much larger numbers than it did. Yes, I know that the 944 was originally released as a hardtop, but does anyone really believe that most customers care whether a particular roadster was designed that way from the outset?

I tend to agree that some of the people who purchase roadsters are not really 'roadster' people. More commonly, however, we see people who have a change in circumstance over time that makes them no longer interested in/capable of owning a roadster (children, relocation to a cold climate, spouses who do not enjoy top-down motoring, etc.). It is not that they weren't 'roadster' people, but rather that a change in circumstance rendered them unable to continue owning one. I was one such person.

In my late teens through early thirties I owned a seiries of sports cars including, in no particular order, a Fiat 850 Spyder, two Fiat X-19's, a Porsche 356B, a Porsche 944 and two Datsun Z's - a 240 and a 260. I loved owning and driving sports cars and having owned both roadsters and hardtops, I can say that I preferred open-air motoring. Please understand that at no time did I lose the desire to own such a car (in fact, I seriously lusted after the 986 upon its introduction); however, circumstances meant that until my children were grown, I was unable to justify the expense of owning one.

Now that my children are grown (essentially - a couple still return home to live from time to time - lol) I was able to justify buying a Boxster as my own toy. I know of many similar stories - of people in their 40's, 50's and 60's who are finally able to either satisfy an urge that they were unable to fulfill when younger, or to buy their first roadster/2 seat hardtop sportscar in many years. So yes, I believe that many who do not/cannot replace a roadster/2 seat sports car with another, will eventually do so down the road. I also believe that the number of people who actually want to buy such a car remains relatively constant.

If I am right and the improvements to the 981 Boxster and Cayman siphon off some sales from the 991, then we should see that reflected in sales over the next couple of years. If you are right, then the relative proportion of sales as between the new Boxster/Cayman and the new 911 should remain roughly constant. Regardless of who turns out to be right, a fun discussion! Thanks.


Brad