986 2.5L vs 996 3.4L Comparison

[southernstar]

Good post Perfectlap! And its not just in the USA where people are competitive by nature. Or look to and review the performance numbers before purchasing a car - especially a sports car. The latter is probably becoming more important as we live in an age when cars are rapidly advancing in terms of performance - and to make our assessment of the relative merits of one car over another, most of us look to these numbers as well as the opinions of the motoring press. Yes, our individual subjective impressions and taste will be decisive for most of us. But the objective numbers do matter.

[pothole]

In that case, you guys are following the wrong models and brands. There are cars that will deliver the competitive numbers numbers you seek for a lot less money (or better numbers for the same money). Porsche is about about the experience, not numbers on a piece of paper.

[Crono0001]

I wasn't aware there was a rule to being a Porsche owner.

Who dictated these rules, of what we can or can't do with our cars? Or what is considered right or wrong? What if we wanted the experience, speed, name, and luxury all in one package? What if we had the means to make our car deliver the experience as well as the speed? But most importantly, who appointed you as "the final arbitrator of what it means to own a Porsche"?

I'm unsure if you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, or if you're actually as unintelligent as your insipid offensive remarks. I gave you the benefit of the doubt earlier, but I'm quite convinced you're just here to offend. There's no need for it here on this board.

[pothole]

Sorry, what exactly was offensive that I posted? Nobody dictated anything. Nobody claimed the position of arbiter.

Think you're just throwing toys because because someone dares to disagree. If you want to have a discussion, make a point rather than a childish stab at scoring points.

Still waiting to hear how you square your posts where you firstly describe the BRZ as the most fun you you've had and then claim speed is everything.

It's not my fault you're contradicting yourself.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

In that case, you guys are following the wrong models and brands. There are cars that will deliver the competitive numbers numbers you seek for a lot less money (or better numbers for the same money)..

If purchased new, I would agree. But buying used has a great way of extracting the Porsche tax/premium from the value consideration. Once a Porsche is well-settled into pricing reality (and not the absurd pricing their currently getting away with) it's a pretty good proposition -- as far as the time sheets.
Others, granted are still better but they have their their drawbacks as well.
Recent Corvettes come to mind, out of the box they put up great single laptimes for an insane bargain price, but visit a local track often and you'll see quiet a few of them on the back of a flatbed, some before even lunch time. I guess you pay up dearly for Porsche durability, but certainly not at Ferrari levels. It's a sort of middle ground in the sports car jungle. However, GM is moving aggresively.
A look at the recently released Stingray options sheet reveals that they WANT their cars to be shaken down on track, while Porsche come up with new ways to screw their warranty holders. I guess GM are hoping to use their buyers as part of development to bridge the durability gap to Porsche. GM certainly has my attention. Even if you mitigate the Porsche tax by buying used, the maintenance costs are still an issue. And personally I like it when the cheaper alternative wins.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

If purchased new, I would agree. But buying used has a great way of extracting the Porsche tax/premium from the value consideration. Once a Porsche is well-settled into pricing reality (and not the absurd pricing their currently getting away with) it's a pretty good proposition -- as far as the time sheets.
Others, granted are still better but they have their their drawbacks as well.
Recent Corvettes come to mind, out of the box they put up great single laptimes for an insane bargain price, but visit a local track often and you'll see quiet a few of them on the back of a flatbed, some before even lunch time. I guess you pay up dearly for Porsche durability, but certainly not at Ferrari levels. It's a sort of middle ground in the sports car jungle. However, GM is moving aggresively.
A look at the recently released Stingray options sheet reveals that they WANT their cars to be shaken down on track, while Porsche come up with new ways to screw their warranty holders. I guess GM are hoping to use their buyers as part of development to bridge the durability gap to Porsche. GM certainly has my attention. Even if you mitigate the Porsche tax by buying used, the maintenance costs are still an issue. And personally I like it when the cheaper alternative wins.

Hmmm... In my experience, simple GM pushrods V8s are far more robust than Pcar engines.

[southernstar]

Actually Perfectlap, I consider the pricing (apart from options) on the new Boxster to be extremely reasonable - the base price of new 981, when adjusted for inflation, is virtually identical to the base price on the 1997 Boxster and the car is significantly faster, better finished, better equipped and has a better warranty.
The options, of course, are and always have been another matter. Nevertheless, if one is careful it is possible to get a very nice new Boxster or Cayman for a pretty reasonable price.

Where base prices become more difficult to justify is once one moves up to the 911 series. When one consider the number of shared parts and the fact the 911 has typically been produced in larger numbers, it is virtually impossible to justify. In order to maintain strong sales (and high profitability) of the 911, Porsche does 'de-tune' the Boxster engines - as has been pointed out in the BHP and torque per liter figures. Still, the Boxster and Cayaman are great cars and if the new ones are still decent 'bang for the buck', the old ones are even better.

It is interesting that the price of early 996's has dropped so much. Stone was able to purchase a nice example for a price in the same range as a 986 Boxster of the same vintage. That makes this debate more interesting, does it not? I suspect that many on this site, if being honest, would have purchased a 996 over a 986 if the prices had been comparable at the time. The 911 has not only more peformance, but also more status than the Boxster; for many, this would be far more important than better turn-in, a better exhaust note for the driver (and for some, a more original design). It will be interesting to see where they shake down in the long-term with respect to values, but at present, it seems that history is repeating itself: as pointed out in an earlier thread, the only time when Boxster (or Boxster + Cayman) sales exceeded the 911 was prior to the front-end redesign on the 996 in 2002. Prior to that, demand for the 986 actually exceeded the demand for the 996 and we may be seeing the same thing in the market today.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Actually Perfectlap, I consider the pricing (apart from options) on the new Boxster to be extremely reasonable - the base price of new 981, when adjusted for inflation, is virtually identical to the base price on the 1997 Boxster and the car is significantly faster, better finished, better equipped and has a better warranty.

What was the 1997 US price, then?

In the UK it was £34,000. It's now £38,000. Adjusted for inflation, my car cost over £60,000 in 1997. 981 is much, much cheaper than the 986 was.

Same applies to the 991 and 996...

981 is a bargain in the UK.

Agree, I would have bought a 996 if I could have afforded it. But in some ways it's a blessing in disguise, because owning a 986 has probably made me more curious about how the 986 and 996 are related and more appreciative of how good a car the 986 is. One, I think, tends to assume a 911 is good. But the 986's virtues are less well appreciated, I think.

[paintboy]

The late Rodney King wants us all to get along.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by paintboy

The late Rodney King wants us all to get along.

Yes, I should probably add an apology if any of my posts came across as unnecessarily dismissive / aggressive / unfriendly. Wasn't the intention.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

Hmmm... In my experience, simple GM pushrods V8s are far more robust than Pcar engines.

street or track? The issue seems to be with long stints pushing the car 10/10's.

Originally Posted by southernstar

Actually Perfectlap, I consider the pricing (apart from options) on the new Boxster to be extremely reasonable - the base price of new 981, when adjusted for inflation, is virtually identical to the base price on the 1997 Boxster and the car is significantly faster, better finished, better equipped.

I could not disagree more. I don't think there's anything reasonable about new Porsche pricing since they became profitable again -- insanely so. After all of those immense profits these cars have hardly been Lexus quality and they surely haven't been putting rivals to shame on track. So its pretty clear where the Porsche tax isn't going... into the cars. Granted the rate of mark up has not been as bad on the Boxster as other models but that's nothing more than common sense by Porsche because a roadster is always the toughest sell -- unless no one wants to buy any of your other cars like when Porsche were near bankruptcy selling air-cooled Carreras. Also, I hardly think the 986 Boxster was a good barometer for reasonable pricing back in 1997 with what was widely criticized as an underpowered engine and a bare bones interior. But I'll grant you they've been consistently over-priced relative to cars of similar perfomance, reliability and sigificantly lower running costs.

p.s.
I find it interesting that a Boxster rival like the Honda S2000 with moderate mileage of the same time period as a Boxster (2000 year in the link below) is commanding very similar prices to what was once a such an expensive car like the Boxster.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-HONDA-S2000-Convertible-Manual-Transmission-Leather-Low-Miles-We-Finance-/400484239259?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item5d3eb8879b

p.p.s.

I would NOT have purchased a Carrera if they were priced the same when I purchased the Boxster S because price was not the deciding factor. In fact it was my intention to buy a Carrera (only $10K more than the Boxster S at the time and well within my budget) but after watching Tif Needel on 5th Gear declaring a Boxster the best sports car money could buy I had to go drive one to see for myself. I had to agree 100%, once the Porsche tax was done away with by second-hand market reality, I saw no point in spending the extra $10K for the base Carrera. The 986 S was nearly perfect in bone stock trim. I'd never really driven a mid-engine car like that. I was instantly sold before I even returned from the test drive. And I certainly wasn't going to buy a Cabriolet 911. If I wanted a convertible this was the Porsche to buy. I'm no worshiper of the 911, for me Porsche racing history goes further back than than the 1970's. When I think of Le Mans, the Carrera is not what comes to mind. I simply thought why not give a tin top a shot this time but then I made the fortunate mistake of driving the Boxster S and it was no longer a debate. Although I certainly would never buy either new, it's just financially illogical given the obvious effects of mass production on depreciation not to mention the need to budget for the over-priced parts and specialized labor, no room for any Porsche taxes as far as I'm concerned.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by pothole

What was the 1997 US price, then?

In the UK it was £34,000. It's now £38,000. Adjusted for inflation, my car cost over £60,000 in 1997. 981 is much, much cheaper than the 986 was.

$40,000 was the pricepoint the Boxster was promised to be under, simular to the reintroduced 924"S" @ $19,990 in 1988?

[southernstar]

Perfectlap, I too would not have purchased a 996 over my 986 even if they were priced roughly the same at the time. I tried both, but my heart was with the 986. I have already indicated that I prefer the design, the handling (which is more precise) and the incredible sound that the driver gets underway because of the side air intake on the driver's side. I remember when the 986 was introduced - I WANTED one badly, but household expenses (and a young son) made it impossible. I loved the 550 influences in the design. I loved everything about it and was even prepared to put up with the relative lack of power. As to the 996 - when it was introduced, I had no similar feelings. It seems that I was not alone fin that regard for, as has been pointed out below, until the upgrades to the 996 in 2002 it was outsold by the Boxster - the only time that has ever happened. And Pothole, I am in complete agreement that for many, the 986 Boxster is an under-appreciated car. I love mine and would not trade it for a 996 of the same vintage.

Pricing? In around 2000 the Boxster started at close to 60K in Canada; due to the improved value of our currency, it remains at roughly the same price today. So yes, I consider the 981 to be 'reasonably' priced for what it offers and a relative bargain. I also suspect that the new 981 Boxster and Cayman may well reverse the trend of 911's outselling the Boxster/Cayman (or at least, dramatically outselling them) since 2001. In spite of Porsche's best efforts to avoid leeching off sales from the 911, I believe that the new Cayman especially will do exactly that; and, I believe that the Boxster will continue to sell in large numbers due to the roadster experience and its lower price. Time will tell.

With reference to future prices, however, the fact that demand was greater for the 2000/2001 Boxster than the same years of 996, bodes well for their ultimate resale value. They were, to many, a more desireable car. The more dramatic depreciation on the early 996 (they started with a significantly higher price), suggests that this remains the same. IMO, that and the new 986 Boxster spec series (which keeps the original Boxster in the public eye), can only help.

[Perfectlap]

A two seat roadster or 2 seat coupe outselling a big comfy, plush, iconic Carrea?
I don't see that ever happening in the future. In fact at one point I was convinced VW would pull the plug on the Boxster if they took over.

The Boxster might have been the bigger initial hit, but the 996 as car was still a history-making success for Porsche. The Boxster simply brought a bunch of first time Porsche buyers out of the woodwork who never had any interest in air-cooled 911. Two different types of buyers for the most part, the initial Boxster fever cooled eventually. Meanwhile the 996 sold more than 30K units in the U.S. in 2002 alone, and were generally over the 25K mark annually. Now compare that to barely 2,600 993 Carreras sold in the U.S. in 1998! During a booming U.S. economy to boot! No wonder 993 are so valueable now they're like Ty Cob baseball cards...a rarity. 200K total 996's has been its ultimate undoing as far as resale. Ditto for the 986.

And it took a little while for the usual Porsche 911 buyer to warm up to a water-cooled Carrera, I don't think it was so much that they prefferd the Boxster, but even with that Porsche still sold 10X's as many 996's in 1999 than that last year of 993 production.
p.s.
The fact that we are saying that a 320 HP 981 Boxster at those prices is a relative bargain tells you what havoc a near zero interest rate policy has wrought on pricing of luxury items. Not to mention corporate profits and stock market all time highs. Porsche, Ferrari, Bentley, Merc know the deep-pockets have gotten deeper and their customers have no qualms with nose bleed pricing accelerating at absured levels. But to say that these sub $100K Porsches are good value isn't really based on their performance or expectations based on proven reliability. Look at the new Stingray Corvette at $50K, it will beat nearly every Carrera, including the new 991 S and the old GT3 and 997 Turbo. You can't even buy a used Cayman R or Boxster Spyder for that pocket change.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Meanwhile the 996 sold more than 30K units in the U.S. in 2002 alone, and were generally over the 25K mark annually. Now compare that to barely 2,600 993 Carreras sold in the U.S. in 1998! During a booming U.S. economy to boot! No wonder 993 are so valueable now they're like Ty Cob baseball cards...a rarity. 200K total 996's has been its ultimate undoing as far as resale. Ditto for the 986.

Nope, those are global sales figures. The total worldwide sales of any water cooled 911 in a single year have never exceed 3x,000 and have been ticking along at 2x,000 for several years now.

[Homeboy981]

I tried to purchase a 996…waded it up with a block!

Actually the goons at the car lot had put Armour All on the tires AND on the tread part too! It was the scariest 30 seconds of my life. It put me off wanting a 911 after that.

I could have fought it but the insurance paid and I went on to a 986. Knew a wanted a Porsche, since I was a pup…but did not want to get "eaten alive" by a 996!

Steering with the rear tires is nothing new to me, dirt bikes, sport bikes, shifter carts - all steer with the rear….IMHO the 911 model is TOO DEPENDENT on steering from the rear - what happens when you do not have traction there? You wad the car up!

Fortunately, no one was hurt in my making that decision.

[southernstar]

Pothole is correct - the sales numbers in post 10 are global, not for the USA. Did the 996 sell many more cars than the 993 it replaced? Yes as by the mid 90's sales of the 993 were hurt by ergonomics, HVAC etc. that had become positively archaic. However, if the original 996 had created the 'buzz' that the 986 did upon its introduction, one would have expected greater sales than the Boxster in the 1999 and 2000 model years. However, it was not until the upgrades in the 2002 MY that sales of the 996 finally surpassed the Boxster.

Was this because the 911 fraterntiy had finally accepted a water-cooled engine? I doubt it - as has already been pointed out, sales of the last air-cooled 911's had already hit rock bottom. Why then the sudden increase in sales of the 996 in the 2002 MY? While the 986 and 996 were developed jointly, the fact that the sheet metal and interior from the doors forward was indentical on both cars clearly hurt sales for the 996. Rather than seeing the 986 as having borrowed from the more expensive 996, since the 986 was introduced two years before the 996, the natural impression was that the 'new' 911 was an overpriced car that borrowed heavily from the significantly cheaper Boxster.

The 2002 MY front revision finally ensured that from every angle, the 996 could not be confused for its less-expensive brother. Lets face it, status is a significant factor for many of the purchasers of 911 Porsches and in that connection, the 911should be readily distinguishable from the 'lower-priced spread'.

Perfectlap, I still believe that the new 981 (so long as one is careful with options) is priced quite reasonably for what it delivers. For those looking to buy a roadster, I am not sure where you would be able to find a new Stingray convertible for $50,000. Even if you could, I (and I suspect many others) would still prefer the Boxster as:

1. To me, the new Stingray with its wedgy shape and Camaro tailights already looks dated. The new 981, however, is a well-balanced, modern design with elements drawn from various mid-engined 'supercars'.
2. Similarly, to my eye the dashboard faciia and steering wheel in the Stingray are overstyled and frankly, tacky. The interior of the 981 Boxster, on the other hand, is both ergonomically sound and understatedly elegant.
3. In an era of dwindling resources and over-reliance on oil from the middle-east (not to mention what most believe is the need to reduce greenhouse gases), the Boxster is dramatically more fuel-efficient. Some of us want to enjoy performance cars while still being seen as 'green', or at least respectful of the environment.
4. The fiberglass body on the Stingray is bound, over time, to develop the creaks and groans that have befallen evey Corvette (and every other car) constructed in the same way. This detracts from driving enjoyment.
5. Mid-engined placement is not merely a styling gimmick - all pure racing cars have used this layout for decades because it is superior than front (or rear) engine placement for vehicle dynamics including turn-in, braking and balance.
6. The ride and cruising comfort in the Boxster is also superior to the Stingray.

Porsches have always cost more than Corvettes and their performance in terms of acceleration, and often braking distances and skidpad numbers, have often been inferior. IMO nothing has changed - one (the Corvette) is a very blunt intstrument, whereas the other (the Boxster) is more like a surgical instrument.
Choose whichever weapon you prefer, but remain thankful that we still have the choice.

Brad

[Perfectlap]

You'll be able to buy a Stingray "roadster" with PLENTY of change to spare over what you'd pay for the 981S. Enough to buy a used 987. Also nice: The factory won't void the warranty for driving on track in "an unusually aggresive manner" (Porsche lawyer speak to void warrantly claims for center lock bolts coming loose and putting you into the wall). To underline the night and day difference in attitudes towards warranty claims, the Stingray options sheet even comes with camera mounts so you can watch your laps at Sebring over and over.

Meanwhile these are the absurd state of options with Porsche fully stuck in "Nothing but Blue Sky" mode
(From the latest Road & Track)

Painted Remote Key: $335
Rear footwell light: $510
Painting 20" wheels: $2,225 (wheels not included of course)
leather on air vents: $1,710
color stitching on steering wheel: $1,025
Alcantara on shift lever: $865

^ excellent trimming for your 991 Porsche that will depreciate like a falling rock. God forbid you get a scratch on it...forget it you end up with one these

Originally Posted by southernstar

the Corvette is a very blunt intstrument, whereas the Boxster is more like a surgical instrument.
Brad

C7 Z51 laptime at ViR Grand Course: 2:54 (on skinny street rubber... not race)

Other cars at VIR GC (on fast rubber)

Ferrari 430 Scuderia: 2:54.6
997.1 GT3: 3:01.8
991 S PDK: 2:58.9
997.2 GT3 RS 3.8: 2:55.9

Which some have speculated will put the new Corvette at N-ring lap of ~7:33-36 on the right tires.
Again, this is BEFORE any performance mods which don't come with Porsche tax on a $50K out the door car...

N-ring:
Ferrari 430 Scuderia: 7:39
997.1 GT3: 7:43
991 S PDK: 7:37.9
997.2 GT3 RS 3.8: 7:33

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

The total worldwide sales of any water cooled 911 in a single year have never exceed 3x,000

From the book "996 The Essential Companion"

1998: 9248
1999: 28,040
2000: 20,979
2001: 27,275
2002: 33,013
2003: 29,536
2004: 23,145
2005: 4012

p.s.
Southernstar, if you look at the above, production for Boxster copy cat Carrera in 1999 was only signicantly lower than the face-lifted 996 for 1 of the 3 full years (excluding 2005) it was produced.

I'd put the drop in 2000 down to the stock market crash and short-lived recession it produced.
By 2002 the credit markets were face deep in the punch bowl of a nearly zero interest rate policy and the mass securitization of all of these loans that followed immediately after aka... the credit bubble.

[pothole]

You do realise what the 'x' in 3x,000 signifies, right?