986 2.5L vs 996 3.4L Comparison

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

As far as mid vs. rear, The Carrera has always struck me as a car that requires the driver to learn a new way of driving to end up with no net advantage on the time sheets.

Some folks find learning how to master a new thing "rewarding" but if at the end of the day the competition are all going quicker in mid engine cars it all seems more like a novelty to me.

Sorry, what does it matter how fast you're going? Surely it matters how much you are enjoying the drive?

I never time myself on the road. Nor on track days. I don't enter races, so lap times don't matter.

I like both 911s and Boxsters. Couldn't care less which is better on "time sheets". Why would that matter?

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

I like both 911s and Boxsters. Couldn't care less which is better on "time sheets". Why would that matter?

well by inference I assumed "time sheets" would be reference to motorsport and competition.
Here in the U.S., by nature, we are very competitive about everything, and this certainly extends into all types of recreational HPDE: If I had a dollar for every casual first time autcrosser or track novice who came in saying "well I'm just driving for fun today" and by the end of that day or month the driver was obssessing over their laptimes relative to others, or fixated on the cars they had to give point-bys, I'd a payed for my recent $2K rotors and waterpump job with ease. It reminds me of specific instance of a driver I knew who once raced against a former McLaren F1 driver when they were amateurs, "you know all those guys over there they're crazy with their new tires, they want FTD and that stupid $5 trophy, bla bla bla....me I'm just here to enjoy the weather, get out of the house, enjoy the new S2000, etc." Well this guy takes second place in pretty competitive field and it was like I was talking to a different guy by the end of the day. "I'm going to beat that #$*@ next week!" LOL.

I guess here we have "sporty" cars and then we have "sports cars". For the latter, as far as our excited and impatient country, it comes down to the black and white performance numbers. The proof in the pudding if you will.... the quantifiable is just as important as the non-quantifiable. For older cars like a Lotus Elan or 912 for instance, obviously you take a different perspective.

Granted, we're talking the sharp end of the needle here, our country is huge and most sports car and sporty car drivers could care less about learning to drive like the rich guys on TV that do it for a living.

[southernstar]

Good post Perfectlap! And its not just in the USA where people are competitive by nature. Or look to and review the performance numbers before purchasing a car - especially a sports car. The latter is probably becoming more important as we live in an age when cars are rapidly advancing in terms of performance - and to make our assessment of the relative merits of one car over another, most of us look to these numbers as well as the opinions of the motoring press. Yes, our individual subjective impressions and taste will be decisive for most of us. But the objective numbers do matter.

[pothole]

In that case, you guys are following the wrong models and brands. There are cars that will deliver the competitive numbers numbers you seek for a lot less money (or better numbers for the same money). Porsche is about about the experience, not numbers on a piece of paper.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

In that case, you guys are following the wrong models and brands. There are cars that will deliver the competitive numbers numbers you seek for a lot less money (or better numbers for the same money)..

If purchased new, I would agree. But buying used has a great way of extracting the Porsche tax/premium from the value consideration. Once a Porsche is well-settled into pricing reality (and not the absurd pricing their currently getting away with) it's a pretty good proposition -- as far as the time sheets.
Others, granted are still better but they have their their drawbacks as well.
Recent Corvettes come to mind, out of the box they put up great single laptimes for an insane bargain price, but visit a local track often and you'll see quiet a few of them on the back of a flatbed, some before even lunch time. I guess you pay up dearly for Porsche durability, but certainly not at Ferrari levels. It's a sort of middle ground in the sports car jungle. However, GM is moving aggresively.
A look at the recently released Stingray options sheet reveals that they WANT their cars to be shaken down on track, while Porsche come up with new ways to screw their warranty holders. I guess GM are hoping to use their buyers as part of development to bridge the durability gap to Porsche. GM certainly has my attention. Even if you mitigate the Porsche tax by buying used, the maintenance costs are still an issue. And personally I like it when the cheaper alternative wins.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

If purchased new, I would agree. But buying used has a great way of extracting the Porsche tax/premium from the value consideration. Once a Porsche is well-settled into pricing reality (and not the absurd pricing their currently getting away with) it's a pretty good proposition -- as far as the time sheets.
Others, granted are still better but they have their their drawbacks as well.
Recent Corvettes come to mind, out of the box they put up great single laptimes for an insane bargain price, but visit a local track often and you'll see quiet a few of them on the back of a flatbed, some before even lunch time. I guess you pay up dearly for Porsche durability, but certainly not at Ferrari levels. It's a sort of middle ground in the sports car jungle. However, GM is moving aggresively.
A look at the recently released Stingray options sheet reveals that they WANT their cars to be shaken down on track, while Porsche come up with new ways to screw their warranty holders. I guess GM are hoping to use their buyers as part of development to bridge the durability gap to Porsche. GM certainly has my attention. Even if you mitigate the Porsche tax by buying used, the maintenance costs are still an issue. And personally I like it when the cheaper alternative wins.

Hmmm... In my experience, simple GM pushrods V8s are far more robust than Pcar engines.

[southernstar]

Actually Perfectlap, I consider the pricing (apart from options) on the new Boxster to be extremely reasonable - the base price of new 981, when adjusted for inflation, is virtually identical to the base price on the 1997 Boxster and the car is significantly faster, better finished, better equipped and has a better warranty.
The options, of course, are and always have been another matter. Nevertheless, if one is careful it is possible to get a very nice new Boxster or Cayman for a pretty reasonable price.

Where base prices become more difficult to justify is once one moves up to the 911 series. When one consider the number of shared parts and the fact the 911 has typically been produced in larger numbers, it is virtually impossible to justify. In order to maintain strong sales (and high profitability) of the 911, Porsche does 'de-tune' the Boxster engines - as has been pointed out in the BHP and torque per liter figures. Still, the Boxster and Cayaman are great cars and if the new ones are still decent 'bang for the buck', the old ones are even better.

It is interesting that the price of early 996's has dropped so much. Stone was able to purchase a nice example for a price in the same range as a 986 Boxster of the same vintage. That makes this debate more interesting, does it not? I suspect that many on this site, if being honest, would have purchased a 996 over a 986 if the prices had been comparable at the time. The 911 has not only more peformance, but also more status than the Boxster; for many, this would be far more important than better turn-in, a better exhaust note for the driver (and for some, a more original design). It will be interesting to see where they shake down in the long-term with respect to values, but at present, it seems that history is repeating itself: as pointed out in an earlier thread, the only time when Boxster (or Boxster + Cayman) sales exceeded the 911 was prior to the front-end redesign on the 996 in 2002. Prior to that, demand for the 986 actually exceeded the demand for the 996 and we may be seeing the same thing in the market today.