got my ecu tuned by powerchip

[Bavarian Motorist]

FINAL CONCLUSION


My now good friend, arenared, PMed me and brought light to my predicament.


If you notice my descriptions...Loss in 1st and 2nd gear, torquey in 5th gear, fast in 3rd gear, it leads to one conclusion: There is a loss at high RPM.


I would have never considered this. I always assumed that the high end yielded the most gains.


I am going to return this product A.S.A.P.



Meeting a girl Thursday night and have an auto-x Sunday but Monday I am going to...immediately.



Thanks to everyone for your insight and thanks especially to arenared for showing me what was right under my nose.


I no longer recommend this product for a 987 if it is your only mod.


Sorry guys if I caused you trouble

[edevlin]

Sorry to hear that your chipping experience did not work out. Just my 2 cents, I am very pleased with the chip I got for my 2.7L 2000 Boxster. I got my chip from the folks at Autothority Pitstop, who were very helpful dialing it in for my car.

The main thing I noticed after chipping was how much more responsive the car is at low to medium rpms, which can be seen by the very flat torque curve. I would recommend it to anyone that wanted a few extra hp (I get a little over 200 hp to the wheels) but a noticably more responsive car.

Ed

[edevlin]

I dont think my dyno trace came through in last post,

Ed

[super66]

I'm pretty car stupid.....you gained 3HP?

[Bavarian Motorist]

What is that comparing? Stock to ECU tuned?



If you noticed...you actually lost a little power and torque down low.

[edevlin]

The two traces are two different versions of tweeks that Autothority Pitstop did to dial in the chip. The 201 is the most recent tweek that I have have dynoed. We have done a subsequent tweek that has probably picked up a few more hp, but I have not dynoed it as yet to check it out.

Ed

[edevlin]

"I'm pretty car stupid.....you gained 3HP?"

Sorry I should have explained, the two graphs are two versions of the tweeks that were done to the chip. I could not find a dyno in time to run a baseline curve (for which I continue to kick myself). So, if I happened to have a 2.7L that was putting out close to 240hp stock, I have no way of knowing without that baseline reading that chippnig did anything at all.

After the chip was installed I found a dyno and started doing runs, 4 or so at last count. Realistically if my car was making in the neighborhood of 217 hp before chipping, it now seems to be making about 20 hp more. But again, HP is one thing, I mostly notice how more responsive the car is with the ECU remapping, it is quite a treat to drive.

Ed

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

I'm sorry, but I have to chime in here, probably to the chagrin of a few...

A Dyno can be a very precise tool, but more often than not, is used in a most imprecise way. There are so many variables affecting the outcome of a Dyno that very few shops even consider, let alone control.

Fuel Quality, Alternator Load, Tire Make, Model, Pressure and Temperature, Heat Soak (Engine, Tranny, Fluids), Advance Curves, Ambient Temperature, Barometric Pressure, etc. are all variables which have definite effect on the results.

A simple XY Graph, without controlling and matching these variables, means NOTHING!. And, an XY Graph without a set of Baseline #s mean even less than that.

Most Dyno Shops are in the Feel Good business, they invest $25k in a Rolling Road, maybe another $1k in minimal software and generate lots of Happy Graphs for their Happy Customers who all rush out to tell their friends which generates more business for the Dyno Shop. The Dyno-Jet has been the best friend the Aftermarket ever had.

But, there's an old addage in testing: Garbage IN... Garbage OUT. Automakers do dyno runs which cost them an average of $25k per run, do you really think that plopping down $50-$100 bucks at your local Dyno Shop can yield results which are just as accurate?

You may choose to believe that the variables I've mentioned have minimal effect, but they are well within the values of the reported gains. In other words, if a varable has a 10 HP effect, and your gains show 10 HP, without knowing whether that variable was present or not, you cannot attribute the gains to the Mod - you are within the degree of error of the testing. Multiple runs don't confirm anything either if the same inaccuracies are present and unaccounted for.

edevlin remarks how flat the torque curve is. Well, what does the Stock torque curve look like? Don't you think that Porsche realizes that a flat torque curve through the mid-ranges is desirable too? Perhaps their torque curve is even more flat - we don't know.

The Dyno Shop I've used has very intricate software which monitors the sensors, electrical loads, and ECU in addition to what the rear wheels are doing. It measures temperatures to the 0.0X°. But, they charge $700 for a run too. Their results are reproducible almost every time.

Then there's the variation in the cars themselves. It's not unusual to see variations in power of 10% or more between the various cars coming off the line, they don't all produce exactly what the Sales Brochure describes, in fact, that number on the Sales Brochure represents the minimum numbers a car will produce.

Remember the MOPAR and FORD Muscle Car brochures of the late '60's? They reported numbers, for Insurance purposes, which were sometimes underestimated by as much as 125HP in the case of the Hemis and Cobra Jet engines. If you're making a Dyno Graph comparison to those published numbers, it's quite possible that you're not having any real increase at all.

The interesting thing about these latest Dyno Graphs isn't the HP or Torque, but the AF graphs. The car is running very Rich and this means that all the fuel is not being combusted. Running Rich robs power and/or leaves power unrealized as the unburnt fuel is expelled out the exhaust. Also, it runs lean at low rpms, again, unusual.

But, in the end, there are no gains to be had except those which were overlooked, for a variety of purposes, by the Manufacturer.

Honda holds a lot of their engines potential back because their strength in the Marketplace has always been Reliability and Range (MPG). This means that there's a lot of potential to unlock, if you don't mind sacrificing those things Honda designed the engine to preserve. Civics and such demonstrate huge Dyno gains because of this.

But, Porsche designed and markets this car as a Sports Car. It already has one of the highest HP/Displacement ratios out there. There just isn't a lot to be found by just reprogramming the software.

If you add Intake, Exhaust and Cams, then it's a whole different story, and different engine. But, absent this, aftermarket chips can't hope to gain more than 10HP. You can alter the curves, change the Power Bands, but for the most part, it's not usually worth the money invested, or the reliability lost...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[edevlin]

Jim makes a lot of good points and has way more dyno experience than I do, I am pretty much a raw novice in Boxsterdom, but I am having a great time. Somewhere in my travels I saw a graph for the HP and torque for a base 2000 boxster, but I cannot rember where I saw it. If anyone has data on a dyno run on a base 2000 I would be interested in seeing it.

I have experienced the variability in similar cars that Jim is referring to. The shop that chipped my car also did another 2000 2.7L boxster that was very muck like mine. That car was setup almost identically to mine, same intake and exhaust mods. The only difference was the other car had true one-bolt wheels (not sure what you call that configuration) which were probably lighter than my aftermarket Carrera wheels.

Anyway, I had a chance to drive that car and it seemed MUCH quicker than mine. The tuner also thought the other car was much faster than mine even though both cars had similar miles on them and again, a very similar setup.

Ed

[eslai]

Basically, any gains less than 10 hp, or really even less than ten percent, are pretty hard to judge on a dyno. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Sorry I got to this party so late though--looks like it was a fun discussion. I've spent a lot of time discussing butt-dyno gains online with people in the past.

BM: Don't know if it's already been said but if you want to see real gains the first step would be to get an exhaust and intake upgrade, THEN tune the ECU. Tuning the ECU by itself won't do anything worthwhile for you.

Also, if you're wishing for more power out of your Boxster, I'd recommend selling your 987 and just buying a 987S instead. That would be the most cost-effective way, honestly.

[silvered]

You guys make me laugh, but then I want to cry... place

Yes - I have MANY dyno's from testing we have conducted since 1997 on the Boxster (we have been tuning Porsche since 1991). In addition, my own car has been a test mule, as has a software engineers new Cayman.

I must say however, that anyone wanting to see dyno runs (ie. squiggly lines on some paper) instead of listening to actual objective driving perceptions clearly misses the main benefit of software tuning - improved overall driveability!

We aren't only adjusting the WOT power, but part throttle as well as reducing the time delay from the drivers foot into the engine.

IMO MNBoxster is being a little irrational with his comment:
"If you add Intake, Exhaust and Cams, then it's a whole different story, and different engine. But, absent this, aftermarket chips can't hope to gain more than 10HP. You can alter the curves, change the Power Bands, but for the most part, it's not usually worth the money invested, or the reliability lost...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99"

What he is implying, is that the 'Performance Software Industry' as a whole is fraudulent! In 2006, SEMA estimated that engine control software tuning (ECU tuning) as an industry produces over $1Bn per annum.

I can also show literally thousands of customers that HAVE NOT taken us up on our generous 14-day trial. Once a client feels the extra performance, they are reluctant to take it out - especially considering it is less than $1,000 in the first place.

It is true that in general there is not as much performance to be gained on a NASP vehicle than there is with forced induction - but I am not sure that you are truly in a position to preach what is to be considered 'worth the money' for others.

BUT - the best post Jim'99 was this one:

"These Optimal Points for Fuel Timing and Spark differ throughout both the RPM and Load Range and are independent of each other. This means you don't always want them as close together as possible, contrary to what you've been told. They have been determined experimentally in the Lab and are programmed as code into the ECU (DME in Porsche Parlance) and are called Maps. Using the signals from various sensors in the engine and car, the DME compares actual conditions to a set of known conditions and selects the correct Map programmed for those conditions and energizes the Fuel Injector and Spark Plug accordingly."

... I now can see that you have little idea about how OBD-2 compliant vehicles are designed and developed by the manufacturer, and furthermore, that you know almost nothing about how a software engineer goes about making changes to the manufacturers settings - to improve overall driveability. No offence, but your posts possess the factual relevancy of 5th Grade science report.

The fact of the matter is that our equipment gives us full control over many functions of the engine. These functions allow us to take advantage of high octane gasoline and optimize the engines response time. In the same way that a customer goes and spends $15,000 on the X51 package at the dealership - only to get a chip and intake - there is little difference to what we offer our clients (only at a fraction of the cost).

Bavarian, please feel free to keep on testing it out to make sure your happy. If you are not, then just give us a call and we can put you back to stock.

PS. attached is customers car we are currently tuning! I am trying to get him to join 987board.com

Enjoy the drive!

Trav

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by silvered

You guys make me laugh,...

me too, but for probably different reasons

IMO MNBoxster is being a little irrational with his comment...

Of course everyone has their opinions and are entitled to them. Interestingly, I share the same one about you. It's all opinion here and people are free to act as they wish, or place whatever weight they choose


What he is implying, is that the 'Performance Software Industry' as a whole is fraudulent! ...

Not at all, it's the value of their (your) claims that I question. Mention Independent Lab Verification and Testing, and you guys scatter like Mice at a Feline Convention!

I'll even concede that there is more gain to be found in a base Vtec Engine then there ever will be from an M96 Flat Six one.

But, there is a way to settle this - Put your money where your mouth is - give me a chip for a stock 2.7L (so I cannot be accused of trying to benefit from all this as I have a 2.5L). Allow me to choose a Car, and 2 Independent Testing Laboratories, which you pay for, and run the Tests. I will even average out the results to eliminate any testing Bias. I have no Axe to grind - if your product truly poses a benefit and real improvement (10% or better), I'm happy to report such. I'd even allow you to use my testimonial and methodology in your advertising - free of charge! Do we have a deal??...

In 2006, SEMA estimated that engine control software tuning (ECU tuning) as an industry produces over $1Bn per annum.

Proving only that there is one born every minute. I wonder how large STP's Market was in the '70's? Andy Granatelli made a fortune repackaging 90W Gear Oil - it quieted engines - no wonder... They made extra horsepower too...

I can also show literally thousands of customers that HAVE NOT taken us up on our generous 14-day trial. Once a client feels the extra performance, they are reluctant to take it out...

Can you say Placebo Effect?...


It is true that in general there is not as much performance to be gained on a NASP vehicle than there is with forced induction - but I am not sure that you are truly in a position to preach what is to be considered 'worth the money' for others...

Agreed - certainly no more so than you...

BUT - the best post Jim'99 was this one... your posts possess the factual relevancy of 5th Grade science report.

Again an opinion, to which you are certainly entitled...

The fact of the matter is that our equipment gives us full control over many functions of the engine. These functions allow us to take advantage of high octane gasoline and optimize the engines response time. In the same way that a customer goes and spends $15,000 on the X51 package at the dealership ...

Yea, I bet you have Porsche on the run... that's why they void the warranty if they find software embedded in, or tampering with the DME...


Bavarian, please feel free to keep on testing it out to make sure your happy. If you are not, then just give us a call and we can put you back to stock...

Just don't go past that 14-day window or you'll hear an entirely different tune, and never take it for warranty repair or the Dealer will find out that the car has been tampered with...

Enjoy the drive!...

You too!...

Trav

Hi,

See above...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[xclusivecar]

For all of you looking to get better throttle response and havent changed the plugs and coils in a while....if ever...I suggest doing so. Skip the expensive tuner crap and just keep the car running in the best condition possible and you won't need band-aids to "feel" the power.

I just changed my plugs and coils and the car got a bit more kick; a better response...all for the price of maintenance I should be doing anyhow!

[Bavarian Motorist]

This is all dandy. My main & primary concern, and I can not stress this enough, is that I do not want any power losses at any point in the powerband or @ any RPM.



How do I know? Well, I don't. It's hard to tell at low RPMs, but I can say w/ a bit of confidence that at high gear at low speeds (35mph in 3rd for example), the car jumps faster than before. It pulls me more. The seat will actually hit my back when I hit the gas.


What does this mean? I don't know. How do you really know?



Throttle response IS improved. I know this sounds a little LOL-worthy, but it does help in day-to-day driving. It's like the difference between having a strong clutch w/ a strong spring and a mushy clutch. You feel what you're doing more, allowing for more precise control.



I am pretty pleased w/ the product. I knew from the beginning the gains for my car would not be substantial. That doesn't need to be told to me.


I just want to couple it w/ the PSE that is coming out in April and see what that does




So make what you want of all of this technical stuff, but I can not say enough about the great service at Powerchip.


I must have called 50 times before and after I got the ECU back and they were happy to answer every single question. Trav is a great salesperson and is very easy to work with.


I actually memorized the phone # because I called so much.




PS: I just have to make a small defense to Trav. He did put some of his $$ where his mouth was. He sold another member & I both the product for $600.

It costs $900. That's a substantial price decrease which shows confidence in the product.


He is willing to sell any of us the product for just $600. If you are willing to take the $90 shipping loss (or $40 if you send it by 3-day mail), I recommend giving it a try, especially if you have other mods.


Special thanks to Jim for putting things into an objective and informational perspective

[super66]

if we are thinking the same chip here, it claims to bump from 240 to 259 with 93 octane gas......

so not being much of a horsepower and ll that jazz kind of guy, but shouldn't/wouldn't yuo cmopletely absolutely feel the jump with a gain of 19 horses???

The only reason I ask is that I saw the chip and claims and wanted it, also claimed to knock a half second of your 0-60 time.....but I just don't think you are giving it the most glowing endorsement.....a lot of back and forth....

I guess I'm staying away from it for now....

[Bavarian Motorist]

It does feel more powerful. It's difficult after a couple of weeks to remember how it USED to feel.



You adapt to the new power and then you are unsure. It feels normal again to you.



That's why HP is so addictive, like a drug

[dcporsche99]

"FINAL CONCLUSION


My now good friend, arenared, PMed me and brought light to my predicament.


If you notice my descriptions...Loss in 1st and 2nd gear, torquey in 5th gear, fast in 3rd gear, it leads to one conclusion: There is a loss at high RPM.


I would have never considered this. I always assumed that the high end yielded the most gains.


I am going to return this product A.S.A.P.



Meeting a girl Thursday night and have an auto-x Sunday but Monday I am going to...immediately.



Thanks to everyone for your insight and thanks especially to arenared for showing me what was right under my nose.


I no longer recommend this product for a 987 if it is your only mod."




Hey Bav,

Just wondering what made you change your mind?? I thought you were going to return it ASAP?? Customer service is one thing, but actually getting what you wanted is another.

Anyway, looks like you've made your decision to keep it. But, do keep us posted!

Thanks again for sharing your experience!

[super66]

Originally Posted by dcporsche99

Hey Bav,

Just wondering what made you change your mind?? I thought you were going to return it ASAP?? Customer service is one thing, but actually getting what you wanted is another.

Anyway, looks like you've made your decision to keep it. But, do keep us posted!

Thanks again for sharing your experience!

I kind of had the same take especially with the money where your mouth is...I mean money where your mouth is send it back here is your 600, not discounting a product....ummm....I'm staying away fo now but thanks for the info you've passed along on this chip......keep us posted for sure

[SD987]

If a chip gave me the improvement in fuel economy that you originally noted, I'd keep it for that reason alone.

[jinijazz]

Bav, you said the throttle response was improved.
How do you compare it with sport mode(Sport Chrono)?