got my ecu tuned by powerchip

[eslai]

If it was significant horsepower, you'd feel it without question. The fact that you're thinking a PSE would make any difference also indicates that you're the type of guy that would be easy to sell parts to.

Skepticism will keep your pocket fat, especially in the aftermarket parts arena where everyone and their brother is selling snake oil.

And, the thing I always ask is, "if all it took was this one little part to give me "X" amount of improvement, why wasn't it done this way at the factory?"

If this thing is really generating better fuel economy, what negative effect is it having that was tuned out at the factory? Everything's a compromise.

To get better fuel economy, you could be running leaner at idle or low throttle. Great, except for the increased emissions. As long as you're not hugging trees or give a crap about children, that's fine.

[Bavarian Motorist]

The gas mileage is definitely improved. There's no question about that. By how much? I can't really say, but it's steadily improved from 19.9 to 21, and this is including an auto-cross and some high performance "testing" of this chip.



The throttle I cannot compare to the sport mode because I don't have that





Eslai: Are you kidding? I've spent months and months trying to find a single product that guaranteed themselves so I would not have to waste $$.


I don't know if you remember when I joined but that was the first thing I asked about; Mods.


I am a very skeptical person but I also realized that spending months & months debating on whether or not I want to spend a few hundred dollars doesn't make any sense either, so I decided to take the bait and see what's up.


Sometimes that's the only way to really know...







Anyways, I think that instead of a PSE, I am going to buy a 1st gen. Miata for track driving and auto-crossing. My car keeps getting all dinged up.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Btw, I just want to say that I think it's faster.


The debates going on in my head were really as to how much faster it is, if it's a lot faster and if it's faster ALL AROUND, but over-all I think it pulls harder.



Anyways, my offer still stands. Anyone who wants to drive my car can and perhaps they can do a comparison themselves. That might solve all of this, or at least help.

[edevlin]

"Anyways, my offer still stands. Anyone who wants to drive my car can and perhaps they can do a comparison themselves. That might solve all of this, or at least help."

First let me say that I am quite pleased with the Autothority chip in my 2.7L Boxster, not that much increase in peak HP, but very responsive. That being said, I dont know how useful having someone drive your car will be to demonstrate how well your chip works.

Here is my reasoning, I recently testdrove drove a 2001 2.7L Boxster with 63K and a 2000 2.7L with 43K. There seemed to be a very noticable difference in responsiveness and power in the 2001 car, even though it is supposed to have the same engine and HP. The other example I have experienced is my car and a almost identically setup 2000 2.7L Boxster.

Same chip, exhaust, intake, just different wheels. The other Boxster was much, much more responsive (could break the tires loose pretty easily in first gear). So I may be hard to tell how much of the difference in drivability is just inherent in your car,

Cheers,

Ed

[porsche986spyder]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Btw, I just want to say that I think it's faster.


The debates going on in my head were really as to how much faster it is, if it's a lot faster and if it's faster ALL AROUND, but over-all I think it pulls harder.



Anyways, my offer still stands. Anyone who wants to drive my car can and perhaps they can do a comparison themselves. That might solve all of this, or at least help.

If your going to continue auto-cross racing I would definately keep the modified ECU. You stated that it had more low end torque and not much top end. That's perfect for auto-cross racing since you realy don't use 4th and 5th gear. All of the driving at those type of events only use gears 1-3.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Edevlin: Yeah, I was thinking of someone w/ a 987 could test, though. Preferably not an '07 as they are a little different. I haven't seen anyone here, though, w/ an '07.

I will extend my offer to any of you guys that want a drive, 987 or not. It doesn't bother me one bit.



Porsch986: You're right! I know all of us Boxster dudes know about the little dead spot @ around 2k rpm in 2nd gear? Yeah, that will kill you in auto-x when coming out of those 'S' turns that you have to slow down for.


I leave it 2nd gear the whole time and it pulls magnificently (of course, I start in 1st)

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Eslai: Are you kidding? I've spent months and months trying to find a single product that guaranteed themselves so I would not have to waste $$.

I don't know if you remember when I joined but that was the first thing I asked about; Mods.

Yeah, and even then we all said the same thing--no such thing as a cheap, worthwhile power mod.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by eslai

Yeah, and even then we all said the same thing--no such thing as a cheap, worthwhile power mod.

Don't take this offensively, but I found many of your (not you in particular) definitions of "worthwhile" to be strange. Many of you believe that $1000 for 10hp is a rip-off, whereas I would jump all over something like that.



Which is why I didn't take many of you seriously and still don't sometimes, because it seems as if a mod doesn't yield substantial gains, you (again, not you in particular) deem it not worthwhile.



Not that some mods aren't total crap because I know many are, but you get my point. It's a difference in opinion.

[der Geist]

This is a really controversial subject it appears Here are a couple of my thoughts-

Most companies set their cars up for the lowest common denominator. As I understand it 93 octane is nonexistent in many cities. It makes sense to me that a car would not be tuned to take advantage of this from the factory and that a chip would. It may not be a huge difference but it must account for something.

I noticed that all the spec boxsters are going to be using the powerchip. I also see a lot of tuning chip decals on race cars and they aren't all turbos. Do the spec boxster guys know something we don't ?

This subject generates loads of criticism here. I just picked up an '06 Audi A4 so I joined one of the Audi boards to learn about it a little. Seems like everyone puts in chips and it is one of the first mods done. Of course the Audi chips are $200.00 less than the Porsche chips. Can't imagine why though!!!

A chip, intake and exhaust should cost less than 2,000.00 and yield roughly 25 HP if I understand everyone correctly. If that's the case I don't think the cheapest way to increase HP is to move to a same year "S" model. Although the "S" models do have a whole lot of extras making the move a tempting one I am not sure the added HP would be enough on it's own. When I bought my Boxster then 3 years old all the "S" versions were selling for 5 to 10 thousand more.

Personally, I think the auto makers like everyone tinkering with the cars. It adds a competitiveness and builds brand loyalty. The guys running the show aren't all dummkopfs you know. Don't underestimate how much free advertising and brand loyalty all these mods generate.

Finally maybe someone can answer a stupid question here. Won't the butt-dyno register a lot higher with someone who weighs 150 to 180 pounds than it will with someone in the 220 to 250 pound range? I certainly don't mean to offend anyone as I am in the middle of those two ranges creeping upwards a little every year myself...My point-isn't it a lot easier to move an object from 0 to 60 a lot faster when there is 70 pounds less in the drivers seat and won't it be substantially more noticeable? Maybe that's why the younger (skinnier) drivers swear by chips and the older more experienced owners don't seem to notice as much of a difference. Course I could be all off base on that too but it does seem to make sense. Any Physicists care to comment?

After reading all this I am still committed to purchasing a chip. I have the exhaust, the intake and I just lost 15 pounds. I am leaning towards the Revo though so if anyone is interested in doing a group buy PM me and we'll give it a shot.

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Don't take this offensively, but I found many of your (not you in particular) definitions of "worthwhile" to be strange. Many of you believe that $1000 for 10hp is a rip-off, whereas I would jump all over something like that.



Which is why I didn't take many of you seriously and still don't sometimes, because it seems as if a mod doesn't yield substantial gains, you (again, not you in particular) deem it not worthwhile.



Not that some mods aren't total crap because I know many are, but you get my point. It's a difference in opinion.

What mods are there that give you ten discernable horsepower for $1000? I can't think of any! 10 horsepower for $1000 WOULD be a great deal on a Boxster. A full exhaust system will cost you three to five grand and net you about 10 to 15 horses.

The argument is more "you're not even getting what you've paid for", rather than "you're spending too much for mods of measureable worth". The mods in this price range are generally debateable. If you want REAL horsepower as opposed to "placebo" or "maybe" horsepower, you have to pony up, so to speak.

[super66]

hey bav, I'm not dumping for the record on spending 1000 for 10 horsepower, I would do it if it was supported by something.....I just don't like the fact that the maker of the chip I think came on here to debunk MN's theories.....

yet he tried to debunk them without any proof....its like this, I'm a sales guy, and my work doesn't necessarily believe I've done my work unless they have the dials and entries into our database to prove it.....so I just saw their add in a magazine claiming my boxster is going to produce 259 HP with their chip.....but no where does it show proof.....

one thing to think about, remember the Che (??) dude and the post where he gave away an exhaust system for exchange of running dyno reports....well there is the challenge, you said this guy puts his money were his mouth is right? have them set your ecu to factory, you go get the tests done to see what you're running....and then have him reprogram it and you pay for the tests again....if it comes out, everyone on the board will be believers of the gains and I'll fork over 600 bucks no problem to get 0 horses no problem

[edevlin]

"After reading all this I am still committed to purchasing a chip. I have the exhaust, the intake and I just lost 15 pounds."

If you have not already done so, you may want to go to a lightweight battery (25-30 lbs savings) and loose your spare (do 03's still have spares... for another 30 lbs savings) and the car will pick up a little zip, what fun......


Ed

[drburton]

Interesting thread. After looking at the cayman forum where they have been doing alot of dyno testing on mods, it seems like you would be best served to go with a header+exhaust mod if you want to gain HP.

I am attaching a link with some of that information. The Miltek header and catback exhaust seem to be getting the best gains.

http://www.caymanclub.net/showthread.php?t=10011

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

The issue here is the use of the dyno to measure any effect.

It doesn't matter whether it's a Chassis or Inertial Dyno, the effects you're trying to measure are too close to the degree of error to really mean anything.

People wanna sluff these off, but there are so many ways to skew the testing, both consciously and inadvertently. These Dynos are for Tuning, not determining absolute values.

The error possible is just too great, and from little things such as electrical load, gear selection, corrections (either manually or software), etc.

Also, Drivetrain losses are often waay too under/over estimated. All testing s/b be recorded only in 4th gear as this is as close to 1:1 as possible and best measures only the flywheel output. The Frictional losses in the Tranny will only account for a 0.5%-1.0% parasitic loss - not the 18%-22% often just pulled out of the air. Most drivetrain loss occurs in the Tires and varies widely from Tire-to-Tire, so much so that no meaningful generalization can be made.

Each error, such as Temperature or Barometric Pressure, or insufficient cooling, etc. may only introduce errors of 1% or 2%, but these errors compound themselves and soon you have error of 10-15% when your measured gain is 8-10%, meaning that you cannot be sure of any gain at all.

You can try to eliminate errors, such as doing Baseline Runs when the engine is HOT (most don't do this), or have an accurate weather model, again, most don't or plug in regional data which can be very different than at the Dyno itself.

The only Dyno which is accurate for the engine is a Bench Dyno. It measures the flywheel specifically. Chassis or inertial Dynos are only useful in monitoring changes while tuning, and even then are subject to great error if the operator dosen't know what they're doing...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[drburton]

I would agree with you that the dyno test can vary greatly dependent on a number of factors. Therefore, the actual numbers in the result are subject to debate. I wouldn't think it was smart to say I'm going to get xHP gain for this mod b/c someone's dyno said so (ie 22hp for Miltek header and exhaust)

However, if you review the many modification posts and related dynos you can start to get a pretty good read on what mods create the greatest impact. So if you have money to burn and specifically are looking for a HP gain, i think it is reasonable to say you will get the best results investing in a new header and exhaust versus the other mod options (with the exception of a new engine).

The point I was making in my earlier post was just that 'directionally' it seems the exhaust/header mod produces the best results.

[Adam]

[QUOTE]=edevlin]
Same chip, exhaust, intake, just different wheels. The other Boxster was much, much more responsive (could break the tires loose pretty easily in first gear).[QUOTE]

Maybe the other car had worn out or different tires than you. Just because it broke the tires loose easier doesn't always mean more power. The PS2's I have on now won't break loose like the PS1's that came on the car.

[QUOTE=super66]hey bav, I'm not dumping for the record on spending 1000 for 10 horsepower, I would do it if it was supported by something.....I just don't like the fact that the maker of the chip I think came on here to debunk MN's theories.....[QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree, it looks Jim's post has shut down the Powerchip guy. He hasn't responded at all. He hasn't given any real data or excepted the challenge. Seems to me Jim scared him off and they don't want to play ball like the Che man.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Adam

Seems to me Jim scared him off ...

Hi,

I'm really not very scary at all... just ask Mrs. MNBoxster...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by edevlin

"I'm pretty car stupid.....you gained 3HP?"

Sorry I should have explained, the two graphs are two versions of the tweeks that were done to the chip. I could not find a dyno in time to run a baseline curve (for which I continue to kick myself). So, if I happened to have a 2.7L that was putting out close to 240hp stock, I have no way of knowing without that baseline reading that chippnig did anything at all.

After the chip was installed I found a dyno and started doing runs, 4 or so at last count. Realistically if my car was making in the neighborhood of 217 hp before chipping, it now seems to be making about 20 hp more. But again, HP is one thing, I mostly notice how more responsive the car is with the ECU remapping, it is quite a treat to drive.

Ed

To me, the graph looks like the variation between the two lines is within the margin of measurement error.

[Brucelee]

After reading this entire thread, I would suggest that money spent on driving school would be money well spent. Certainly, better driving skills mean more than 10 HP in most situations that matter.

And you will be a safer driver to boot!

Bob B. here we come!

[edevlin]

"Sorry I should have explained, the two graphs are two versions of the tweeks that were done to the chip....."


Ed


"To me, the graph looks like the variation between the two lines is within the margin of measurement error."



I would certainlly agree that the difference in the two graphs I showed could, and likely is a result of measurement error. But I have been impressed with how close the numbers are on the dyno pulls I have done (all at the same shop over a 3 month or so period). Numbers I have gotten were something like this:

Baseline Run: NO DATA.....I know, I know.....

Chip + Intake + 17" stock wheels: 198hp

Chip + Intake + Dansk Sausage muffler + 17" wheels: 197 HP

Chip + Intake + headers/cats/stock muffler + 17" wheels: 203 hp

Chip + Intake + Headers/Cats/Stock Muffler + 18" wheels: 201 hp


Those runs represent a small sample size, but the correlation between the kinds of things done to the car and the HP seem to be pretty close. I understand that the different runs were done (all with a warm engine) under different environmental temperature and humidity conditions, but the dyno tech said the software adjusts for the different environmental conditions.

OK, here is what I am hoping to do this summer when the folks at Autothority Pitstop move to their new location outside of DC and set up their dyno. We have been planning for some time now to fine tune the chip I got from them real-time to my car, but before they start I will see if I can get them put the stock programming back in and I will do that missing baseline dyno run.

We can then put back in the current version of the chip I am using and we will try to tweek it. I would do that now if they had their dyno working but it will probably be 3 months until it is online. BTW, I am not concerned with peak HP, come on, this is a 2.7L car. What I am interested in is responsiveness and setting up the car for maximum efficiency with high octane gas, but not at the expense of abusing the car, fun stuff.....


Ed

:dance: :dance: :dance: