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Old 09-28-2017, 07:37 AM   #1
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1999 Boxster Camshaft Deviation Repair

I sold my 1999 Boxster out-of-state to a guy in Ohio. Well when the car was analyzed by two Porsche shops, they both found a cam shaft deviation of 4 in Bank 1 and 14 in Bank 2. They told him not to drive it.

When he got the car repaired, they replaced two timing chain tensioners and stabilizer link. In addition they replaced the IMS bearing, clutch, spark plugs, front sway bars, and brake fluid.

The IMS bearing replacement was ~ $2000 and the total $4,000. Now the buyer is asking me to consider paying him $1,500 to help cover the unexpected costs.

I went to my garage with the invoice. The owner of the garage is also a 1999 Boxster owner with about twice the mileage. He had just performed my annual service in February and said it was nearly perfect. He also told me that the 1999 Boxster seldom had an IMS problem. It was 2000 models and after. He also saw no evidence of filings in the oil filter or any error codes.

Any thoughts about whether this person was taken?

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Old 09-28-2017, 07:47 AM   #2
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Invoice

Here is the complete invoice.
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File Type: pdf 2017_09_28 Invoice Page 1.pdf (108.7 KB, 166 views)
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:31 AM   #3
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This is a bit of a hard call, but a couple of observations:

1. They charged him an hour and a half to check the cam deviations; it takes about 10 min. if you are really slow.
2. I do not see any evidence (data files, etc.) showing that the cam deviation was off by that much. In fact, if it actually was that far off, the car should be running like crap and throwing codes, which are also not demonstrated. They simply state it is off by that amount.
3. By the time an IMS bearing goes bad enough to knock the cam deviations off by that amount, the engine would be full of metal and not recoverable. The IMS did not cause the issue, but the cam wear pads could have. But again, you have no data to demonstrate that.
4. There are some very questionable time charges in that bill. . They charged 1.2 hours to replace each sway bar drop link; on a lift, you should be able to do both sides in about 15 min. if you take your time or they are severely rusted.
5. They charged him for 10 quarts of oil; the engine is incapable of holding that much oil, it would be severely overfilled.

The bill is questionable, as is the premise that he needed an IMS bearing.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by CRNile View Post
I sold my 1999 Boxster out-of-state to a guy in Ohio...

Now the buyer is asking me to consider paying him $1,500 to help cover the unexpected costs.

I went to my garage with the invoice. ...He had just performed my annual service in February and said it was nearly perfect. ...
If I told you that reading your post made me sad, would you consider paying me $150 to make me happier?

I don't see how you have any moral or legal obligation to help the buyer. Pre-Purchase Inspections are always recommended on this forum. If the money spent was significant to the buyer, he should have had one done before the purchase. If you sold what you believed to be a good car and he purchased it without duress, the future of the car is his. His choice of mechanic, his choice of how to address the claimed deficiency. Sorry for his loss.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:36 AM   #5
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Thanks

Thanks for your input. I thought that the IMS was extra. The fact that it drove so well and no codes indicated that something was wrong with the assessment. There was some thought that the initial testing caused the deviation to jamb at 14.

I do feel sorry for the new owner and may send him some money in good faith, but not $1,500. I just wanted him to have a good experience.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:05 AM   #6
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So a guy

(presuming it was a guy) buys a 18 year old car with ?? mileage and walks into a shop and says fix everything and a private seller is supposed to pay for lots of it?

I've often said buying a used car is a crap shoot, you do your due diligence up front to reduce risks but there is no surety.

When I bought my second Boxster, I knew it was going to cost me at least $2k to bring it to a maintenance state I was comfortable with. Then I found it had cupped tires and a bad alignment. My expense. No complaint that the seller didn't have my standards. The key was I factored in the probable costs when the price was negotiated because I checked. Had I not had the PPI, no deal.

I'm glad the buyer did all this maintenance.

I have no idea what he paid for the car compared for the going price.

You apparently represented the car with the facts as you knew them from your mechanic.

IMNSHO the buyer is owed nothing from you either morally or legally. He learned an expensive lesson.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:21 AM   #7
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FYI, he paid $7,250 for a California car. I started at $8,000.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:35 AM   #8
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This is a no brainer...tell him to shove off. Even if you knew of all the problems it still would be too bad for him. As others have said...due diligence/PPI is on him. Please don't knock yourself for this.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:47 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by achillies View Post
This is a no brainer...tell him to shove off. Even if you knew of all the problems it still would be too bad for him. As others have said...due diligence/PPI is on him. Please don't knock yourself for this.
I agree 100%. Don't send him a dime, and don't lose any sleep!
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:56 PM   #10
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What kind of warranty did you offer on the car? Any used car from a private seller carries no warranty, stated or implied. I have sold many cars in the past and as a private seller people rarely even have the audacity to ask for one because as a private individual you are incapable of offering one short of hiring lawyers to write it up etc... Due diligence is on the buyer. We are all responsible for PPI ourselves on a dealer offered or private sale car.
If someone asks me for a warranty I have 2 smart alec replies:
I guarantee that it got me to and from work yesterday or that I give the old 30/30 warranty which stands for 30 feet or 30 seconds, whichever comes first.
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:15 PM   #11
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Oh crap! Not another one!

I know how you feel since I was in a similar situation. Just do what you think is right. And I'm not saying in any way that you should pay him. Just do what you think is fair and call it a day.

Here is a link to what happened to me... http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/56140-i-bought-my-996-back-today.html
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:23 PM   #12
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+1 JFP

IIRC, the cars throws a CEL when deviations get into the 9+ range.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:50 PM   #13
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Apparently buyer is new to 986 if any P-cars and did not do homework prior to purchase to be smart enough to check things out up front, then got him shafted by his garage basically for his ignorance...It's 100% buyer at fault.

The day I bought mine last year, drove her home and parked in my garage for the first time, it wetted the garage floor and carpet behind drivers seat was soaked.... I panicked but it turned out just clogged drain hole and standing water under the clamshell. Then I jacked the car up a few days later for oil change, and saw one of rear tires had partial contact surface bulged, very strange but unquestionably structural damage... coughed up unplanned expense for 4 new tires. I kicked myself not checking more carefully, never thought to blame the seller or shamelessly ask for money. Cash for a key, that's all with buying a used car private.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:58 PM   #14
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Call me cynical, but maybe he knows the mechanic and is taking a shot in the dark that you might be a push over? Maybe have your mechanic draft a letter regarding your February work. Buyer beware.
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:26 PM   #15
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I would be very careful not to cave on this as it sure doesn't sound you did anything to mislead the buyer.

It is a funny invoice though...N/C for spark plugs yet, as mentioned earlier, 1.2 hours for drop links?

AOS replaced - I understand this is a while you're in there type thing with tranny out but it was at the buyers discretion as your AOS didn't have a problem.

Clutch assembly- See above. Did you have a worn clutch? There is no mention of it, hence this was done at buyers discretion as part of IMS R/R. same for RMS, oil, filters etc. Not your responsibility.

Send a few bucks if it makes you sleep better at night but it doesn't seem to me like you owe the buyer ANYTHING for this work.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:14 AM   #16
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I'd send him a link to this thread instead of $$
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:14 AM   #17
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Offer to buy back the car for the original selling price
Then re-sell it. With all that work you might make another couple thousand bucks
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Old 09-29-2017, 04:03 AM   #18
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I don't see replacement of the chain ramps which I thought was the primary cause of cam deviations. This is a major task requiring removal of the valve covers and made much easier by removing the engine. My understanding is:

Get the car good and warned up, and check the deviations.

+-6, but steady - in range.
Greater than +-6 but steady, out of range due to chain pad wear
Not steady, possibly ims issue causing the reading to bounce around. Bad.

After all this work, what are the new cam deviations?

And what kit is the "Ims oil line kit" for >$1000.

The time to ask for consideration is after an inspection and before the purchase is finalized. And a reading of 14 would certainly have set a check engine light. You want the buyer to have a good experience, but you sold the car in good faith, in my opinion you have no obligation.
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:40 AM   #19
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I wouldn't pay him anything, not because he had issues, but the invoice is a bit of nonsense. Along with 10 qts. of oil, there is 2.5 hours to replace a timing chin tensioner?? This takes 15 minutes to do (on the non ac side) and IS part of doing an IMS. What he has done is not making any sense to me.

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