Do you ever feel vulnerable with the top down?

[mtch]

Originally Posted by JackG

Do you mind if I ask if you've ever really had anything happen? I live in the south, and while I realize that bad things happened years ago, it seems that society has moved on quite a bit. I truly don't know anyone who would give you a second look if you were on a drive around here.

Just curious...

I am greatful that most of society has moved on, and that I could drive around where you live with no problems. However, I titled my post perspective because that what it is really all about. How many people on this board have ever been mugged or assaulted in an urban area, yet there is still a feeling of vulnerability in cerain situations. I grew up living in Baltimore and Philadephia, and I feel safe driving top down in many places that many other Porsche owners would not. People can control their actions, but not their feelings. Feelings are based partly on instict and partially on perceptions and beliefs. That's why perspective is a funny thing. Two people will often perceive the same situation much differently.

and to answer the question directly......

Yes it has. At the time, I was stationed in Louisianna, which is the most boring Army base in the states. It was my first weekend there, and there was only one bar in town. I drove to it, and in the parking lot I was met by the (un)welcoming party.

At that time, I did not own a gun, and I doubt I would have had to use one even if I had. It was only 10 pm, and most patrons are not quite drunk enough yet to do something that stupid. Had it been later, say midnight, I may have had a real problem.

As a young Army officer, I was a little miffed because I had recently taken an oath to defend the citizens of this country, yet I was the one in need of defense from some of the very citizens I had sworn to defend.


After that incident, I realized a couple of things. First, was that ignorant and closed minded people exist everywhere and in all groups. No race, ethnicity, or religion is void of it's share of ignorance and lowlife.( as I stated before, crime nd violence are functions of education and income in most cases) Second, was that I was stationed less than 100 miles from Jasper TX. I bought my first handgun a week later, and obtained a carry permit shortly after that.

[Brucelee]

Actually Jim, to me this has nothing to do with property per se. However, if i were sitting in traffic and I perceived that my life was in danger, I would have NO PROBLEM shooting someone who as threatening me.

Now, this is a judgement call but I certainly prefer having the option to use my judgement than to rely on the judgement of the guy climbing into my Porsche who has not been invited.

The issue with gun control is that it only applies to law abiding citizens. The criminals simply laugh, arm themselves and have their way with us.

Not me. If I think I am in danger, that F....er is going down. We will sort it out later but I will be alive to do the sorting.

If that make me a redneck, hey, I am a redneck.

[Adam]

Yikes..shoot first ask questions later? After reading your guys' posts I'm glad I live around cornfields in a small rura, college town in IL. I've never had a problem or perceived one driving around. ...except for the occasional camaro or stang driver that wants to race. I thought driving our cars were supposed to be fun!

[PorscheCrazy]

2 words: Para Ordinance

[SD987]

Either hit the gas or hit the trigger.

Bruce, I must say, it’s a little odd that you’d post comments promoting gun-toting among automotive enthusiasts but discourage people from posting go-fast/street-racing threads? With all the road-rage out there, I think I’d feel safer cruising the freeways surrounded by STi drivers with nitrous then a group of Camry owners packing heat.

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge supporter of the second amendment.

Which part of the amendment? The part that is usually taken out of context from the first part?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."'

It’s a lot more exciting to think about taking out a gun to gain control of a situation than to contemplate a running gun-battle with someone shooting back at you. The obvious point being that the same permit that entitles you to carry a gun entitles every wackjob in your state of residence to do the same, and if some low-life is approaching your car in a state with little gun-control, it’s naïve to think you’ll be the only one packing. To paraphrase Capt. Willard “Don’t get out of the boat unless you’re willing to go all the way.” Please don’t risk your life in a shoot-out for a 5 year old car with 228 horsepower and RMS problems. Depending on your username, that could be tragic.

In a similar theme I would suggest that all aspiring Cobra Kai members acquire the most important asset in a fight, the ability to take a punch as well as you throw one. If it's been awhile since you've been on the business end of a punch thrown in anger you’ll be likely to turtle like a mutant ninja or lose your ****************, neither of which is going to help you in a fight.

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by SD987

The obvious point being that the same permit that entitles you to carry a gun entitles every wackjob in your state of residence to do the same, and if some low-life is approaching your car in a state with little gun-control, it’s naïve to think you’ll be the only one packing.

SD, I think you missed the point, correct me if I am wrong. Brucelee point was "The issue with gun control is that it only applies to law abiding citizens. The criminals simply laugh, arm themselves and have their way with us."
No matter how "little gun control" a state has, most criminals are not registered/licensed hand gun carriers. Most criminals by junk guns off the street. Don't believe me? Then talk to your local BATF.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Actually Jim, to me this has nothing to do with property per se. However, if i were sitting in traffic and I perceived that my life was in danger, I would have NO PROBLEM shooting someone who as threatening me.

Now, this is a judgement call but I certainly prefer having the option to use my judgement than to rely on the judgement of the guy climbing into my Porsche who has not been invited.

The issue with gun control is that it only applies to law abiding citizens. The criminals simply laugh, arm themselves and have their way with us.

Not me. If I think I am in danger, that F....er is going down. We will sort it out later but I will be alive to do the sorting.

If that make me a redneck, hey, I am a redneck.

Bruce,

I respect your opinion and certainly the Law (to posses and carry) and many here are on your side.

Not being thoroughly acquainted with all pertinent laws in all states, I don't know what rights a Citizen has in the use of deadly force outside their own home, but I do know that the actions of anyone doing so are held up to the light by a 3rd party (parties) who then judge if the use of deadly force was justified or whether aggravated assualt or manslaughter charges need be pursued. If you have witnesses (and they corroborate your perception of the situation), you may come out all right on the back end. But, not until you've spent at least a couple hours in the Cop Shop or the Hoosgow awaiting arraignment, spent a couple thousand on Bail and Lawyers, and unwittingly increased both your circle of friends and your vocabulary. And, you better hope you don't get a Gun Control advocate as a Prosecutor or a Judge! And what if the Witnesses side with their Home Boy instead of Da Man? That'd make you real popular with the Orange Jumpsuit crowd!

Also, one better be very sure how practiced their aim is in a tense situation (I'm not talking about plinking paper targets on a Range) so you don't bring down a kid skateboarding across the street or an old Lady watering her plants in the Window, or anyone else within 300 yards. Aside from any possible Felony charges, the Wrongful Death Civil Suit, which would surely follow (possibly even from the Perp's family - you drive a Porsche afterall) might make you wish you had chosen another option.

As I said, I respect your views and your rights. But to me, carrying a Gun just complicates many more issues than it solves. Personally, I think I'll stick with Advance to the Rear!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Not being thoroughly acquainted with all pertinent laws in all states, I don't know what rights a Citizen has in the use of deadly force outside their own home, but I do know that the actions of anyone doing so are held up to the light by a 3rd party (parties) who then judge if the use of deadly force was justified or whether aggravated assualt or manslaughter charges need be pursued.

MN it depends on your state, a few states like Indiana are more biased toward the gun owner.
"Gov. Mitch Daniels signed House Enrolled Act 1028, which says Hoosiers do not have to retreat before using deadly force to prevent serious bodily injury to themselves or someone else "

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

If you have witnesses (and they corroborate your perception of the situation), you may come out all right on the back end. But, not until you've spent at least a couple hours in the Cop Shop or the Hoosgow awaiting arraignment, spent a couple thousand on Bail and Lawyers, and unwittingly increased both your circle of friends and your vocabulary. And, you better hope you don't get a Gun Control advocate as a Prosecutor or a Judge! And what if the Witnesses side with their Home Boy instead of Da Man? That'd make you real popular with the Orange Jumpsuit crowd!

That is why after every shooting, LEOs do Forensics and Ballistics test. You can't solely trust witnesses in court.



I also agree with you on the collateral damage. I am a person that believe you MUST have gun training if you want a gun. Kind of like a car, if you want to drive you must have training.

[Brucelee]

To amplify.

I respect anyone's opinion and decision to not carry a gun. Gun ownership and use is not simple and the decision one makes in its use are serious indeed. Anyone who does use a gun must face the legal and emotional consequences of that use. If you are not prepared to do that, hey, I would not own a gun.

Of course, the need to protect one's life is very real issue in some parts of the world and sadly, that ocurrs more than we would like to admit. Certainly, one CANNOT rely on the police to protect our life and limb, only to TRY to apprehend the bad guys after the deed is over.

I can tell you from experience that the police are fairly ineffectual on an after the fact basis. Moreover, the court system lets us all down on a daily basis even after a criminal is apprehended.

What I DO object to is the folks who seek to disarm those of us who would LEGALLY own a gun and use it appropriately. I have no issue with req. to be trained, investigated and licensed. That is similar to what we need to do to drive and I think that is fine.

I DO have an issue with folks who would simply ban gun ownership entirely, which of course means that the criminals would have guns, and we would not.

Not a good scenario.

On a last note, please note that I alluded to LEGAL ownership and use of a gun. This is akin to my stance against ILLEGAL use of the road for racing.

[Brucelee]

"Please don’t risk your life in a shoot-out for a 5 year old car with 228 horsepower and RMS problems. Depending on your username, that could be tragic."

When I used to teach martial arts, I said this over and over. If someone attempts to rob you, give them your wallet. If someone pulls a knife or gun, try to run away.

If you have to fight, make it over a threat to your person, not to your property or ego. Especially your EGO!

Then and only then, fight back and do it with full measure. At that point, you MUST assume the person means to take your life and you should do the same.

Using half hearted fancy studio moves on the street is a great way to become dead very very quickly. Taking out an eye or crushing a wind pipe will allow you to walk away from this threat very very quickly. The longer the fight goes on, the worse it becomes.

So too with a gun. Only pull it when it needs to be pulled AND used. Otherwise, leave it under the seat and get the hell out of there.

"Lets be careful out there!"

[Dr. Kill]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

When I used to teach martial arts, I said this over and over. If someone attempts to rob you, give them your wallet. If someone pulls a knife or gun, try to run away.

If you have to fight, make it over a threat to your person, not to your property or ego. Especially your EGO!

Then and only then, fight back and do it with full measure. At that point, you MUST assume the person means to take your life and you should do the same.

So too with a gun. Only pull it when it needs to be pulled AND used. Otherwise, leave it under the seat and get the hell out of there.

I think this is exactly the point I was trying to make here too. It sounds to me like those who are making the opposing argument are really objecting to using the weapon when there is a chance that one can get away. No we are not talking about fantasizing about a shootout with 5 carjackers or aspiring to jump out of the car to fight it out ala Cobra Kahn style or however it was presented. I am certainly not advocating that. The scenario is – all other options are exhausted, you feel that there is a good chance that you, or a member of your family, will be more than beaten up – life endangerment here – I personally want the option to end the incident (that I did not start) with my life still in tact. Yes, there will likely be legal issues, but to me, I would rather be alive with legal issues, than without them and dead. Again, we are talking about having options in a last-resort situation.

[Dr. Kill]

The other argument I am hearing is that some people might not be talking about abuse by criminals (not stoppable by gun laws), but by people who would not normally carry weapons unless they were allowed to – thinking half drunk ************************************ on Friday night thinking he is The Punisher or something. I agree that this could be a problem. The answer though is not to just allow everyone to pack heat. If I am not mistaken, even the laws in Florida won’t let you carry your concealed weapon into an establishment that serves alcohol. I think this restriction is a good idea. Like Bruce Lee said, licensing, investigation, and training training training.

I do not currently carry a weapon when I leave the house because it is not legal in my state, but there have been times when I would have felt more comfortable with one. I am a former Paratrooper and Guardsman who has been properly trained to safely use and carry machine guns, grenades and rocket launchers in environments with both hostile civilian and enemy personnel and not to use excessive force. I would not be endangering my fellow man if I was allowed to travel with a .357 in the glove compartment.

It can be done safely if the program is implemented properly.

I just want the option to be ABLE to defend myself if the need arises.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Dr. Kill

I think this is exactly the point I was trying to make here too. It sounds to me like those who are making the opposing argument are really objecting to using the weapon when there is a chance that one can get away. No we are not talking about fantasizing about a shootout with 5 carjackers or aspiring to jump out of the car to fight it out ala Cobra Kahn style or however it was presented. I am certainly not advocating that. The scenario is – all other options are exhausted, you feel that there is a good chance that you, or a member of your family, will be more than beaten up – life endangerment here – I personally want the option to end the incident (that I did not start) with my life still in tact. Yes, there will likely be legal issues, but to me, I would rather be alive with legal issues, than without them and dead. Again, we are talking about having options in a last-resort situation.

Hi,

I am not saying people should disarm. From my 1st post, I confirmed my belief in the 2nd Ammendment.

What I am saying is that a Gun is really no practical deterrent. It's only value is to be used. If you simply pull it, this will more likely have an escalating effect than a deterrent one. This is especially true if you frequent that scene, next time the other guy will be forewarned.

The consensus among those advocating carrying a Handgun seems to be that only in an absolutely iron-clad, last-resort danger should it be used. But, what does that mean?

A Bad Guy may wield a Gun simply to scare you with no intention of using it. It may even be inoperable or unloaded. Often we hear of Police Officers shooting people who only possess fake guns, or hold-ups with replicas (just as an example). So, the only way you can be certain that the situation is truly life threatening is to have the Bad Guy actually fire a shot at you, anything else and you're making an assumption to one degree or another, maybe reasonable, maybe not. If the first shot misses or isn't fatal, you can now proceed with your planned response. If he didn't miss, your Gun has really done you no good.

At this point, do you scramble for cover (The Flight syndrome)? Or stand there, unholster the weapon, click off the safety, possibly chamber a round, take a bead on your target (the Bad Guy) and finally squeeze off a round into him/her? By the time all this has been accomplished, you're likely already wounded, or dead, and what if you have an unarmed friend, wife or girlfriend with you. While you're trying to combat the Bad Guy, what are they doing - how do they interfere with your intended response? In many cases then, a Handgun will be ineffective at least, and maybe even counterproductive, for what you're trying to accomplish.

Or, is carrying a Handgun the Adult equivalent of Linus's Blanket? Well now we're no longer talking about countering an immanent threat. It's purpose is now to make you feel good anytime, anywhere. But, at the risk of all those things I have mentioned above, in addition to possibly giving many a false confidence which may lead them into situations where they would otherwise not be.

If all the time and expense of acquiring, licensing and training with a Handgun were spent on learning some Anger Management and Conflict Avoidance techniques, one may achieve better results. Something is not always better than Nothing. I truly don't know the answer, nor am I sure that there is any one answer to all possible situations...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99