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Old 03-09-2006, 05:56 PM   #1
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Check out this month's Motor trend

great issue of Motor Trend this month. What Porsche was hoping to avoid has occured, A 997S v. CaymanS comparo.
If that weren't enough the pit the 911 against a Z06 and the V8 Aston.
(They give a resounding thumbs up to the balsa wood-carbon reinforced Z06).
some excellent graphical analysis.

It has begun, open season on the 911 (from within the Brand).

great shots of the GT 40 'spyder' and a lengthy article on the Ferrarari Scag. across many continents.

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Old 03-09-2006, 08:15 PM   #2
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Man, I hate to admit it but the 911S got SMOKED by the Zo6. Oh well.
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Old 03-09-2006, 08:21 PM   #3
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It might have been the 505HP?
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Old 03-09-2006, 08:59 PM   #4
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This month's issue of EVO pits the Z06 agains the GT3 RS and Lotus Exige and Noble.
Looking at some of the photos I have to say and never thought I would say this but I prefer the interior of the Z06 over that of the 997. There I said it.
THe three spoke wheel of the Z06 looks far more to my liking than the VW'esque 997 wheel.

anyhooo.... the Z06 apparently has balsa wood covered in carbon for underfloor treatment. The only daily drive-able of the bunch according to the Brits.
Their only complaint was that it was the only one of the bunch that was too straightforward to drive and kind of boring compared to the others that were mored demmanding of a less than skilled driver.

I think the 997 and 997S credibility si going to start to take an enourmous hit with more and more of these comparos. Its a double whamy: The Corvette is seriously new and improved and the CaymanS is the mid engine 911 everyone has been clamoring for after 40 years. Not to mention that Aston's V8 is knocking on the Plush GT door with performance to boot.
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:09 AM   #5
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Ah, but have you driven the most recent corvette? It's a totally different driving experience than a Porsche. That and while that interior might look good in magazines, it is NOT a nice place to be in in reality. Creaky and cheap are the first two words that come to mind.

My good friend has a C6, (not the Z06 though) and even after a year he still feels that the car is a bit intimidating to drive. You don't get the same sense of confidence that you get out of driving a Boxster--that sense that you can really wring the car out to its full potential. It requires a lot of faith to harness all that power for good.

We've done a number of canyon runs lately and I'm always either right on his butt or leaving him waaaaaaaaaay behind and he's no slouch of a driver.
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:33 AM   #6
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Alot dont take the idea of a base 911 versus the best OEM Corvette available. Lets run a 911 Turbo or GT3 against a Z06.
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Old 03-10-2006, 06:52 AM   #7
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I obviously love Porsche but I have to say that I like the fact that an American car finally wins something and gets some respect. Plus, this is going to make Porsche work that much harder to make sure that they don't get beat again resulting in better cars for us all!
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Old 03-10-2006, 07:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkwatt
Alot dont take the idea of a base 911 versus the best OEM Corvette available. Lets run a 911 Turbo or GT3 against a Z06.
I can buy 2 zo6s for the price of one 911 Turbo. Apples to oranges.

Face it, Porsche has a problem on its hands. Performance per dollar, the zo6 is a ton of car.

Regarding the issue of the C6 interior, it is candidly, much nicer than my 911s (IMHO).

As far as creaks and rattles, I will take you out in my '04 911 and you can enjoy quite a concert.

C'mon, lets give credit where it is due.

Oh, and I will be happy to take on any stock boxster with a stock c6. Sorry, but that would be a serious butt whipping on any but the shorter and twistiest course.

I think we can love our Boxsters without making them what they are not.

Now, if Porsche would simply give us a 300HP Boxster S, I for one would believe they are listening to us.
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Old 03-10-2006, 07:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucelee
Face it, Porsche has a problem on its hands. Performance per dollar, the zo6 is a ton of car.
That's true. There are a bunch of cheaper cars that can meet or beat it's performance numbers, and nearly all of it's prestige brand rivals are faster (albeit more expensive).

Boxster has the same problem - the S2000 is a hell of a car, and around $20k cheaper, and performance in the base box no better compared to BMW and Mercedes oferings.

The solution seems simple, no? A 300-hp base Boxster and a 400-hp base 911
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Old 03-10-2006, 07:49 AM   #10
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"The solution seems simple, no? A 300-hp base Boxster and a 400-hp base 911"

I agree and I don't see the problem here, other than economics. I really believe that Porsche sits there and tries to figure out exactly how much $ they can extract per HP.

Hence, the myriad of models on the 911, an S, a 4, a 4S, a TURBO, a GT3, etc, etc.

Same goes for the options and models, ie, a coupe, a cab, a targa. Whats next, a coupe/targa combined?

After a while, it wears thin, at least to me.

Let us have a 300HP Boxster S for say $50K and I think the world will continue to beat a path to the Porsche door. Man, I woud really love to drive a 300 HP Box S with a 6 speed manual!

If I was buying a new 911, for my $75K, I would DEMAND a 400 HP base coupe, normally aspiriated.

Where is the issue here?
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Old 03-10-2006, 09:36 AM   #11
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In accordance with their slogan "There is no substitute", Porsche has sought to manage their product line to maximize investment return, and minimize internal competition between models. Of secondary importance, apparently, is competition with other brands.
This is much like the IBM marketing philosopy in the '80s, when they would never even mention or admit that there was any other computer manufacturer, and therefore never compared their products with others, at least in front of their customers.
Not a bad strategy if there is in fact "no substitute", but ultimately there were a lot of substitutes for IBM, and there are more and more for Porsche as well.
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Old 03-10-2006, 10:14 AM   #12
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I think the term arrogant signified the IBM culture of the 80s. I think the same term could be applied to Porsche managment.

Pride goeth before a fall?
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Old 03-10-2006, 10:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Not a bad strategy if there is in fact "no substitute", but ultimately there were a lot of substitutes for IBM, and there are more and more for Porsche as well.
I might point outthat IBM no longer manufactures PCs...
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:07 AM   #14
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It was truly a fascinating series of articles. 911 versus Z06, 911 versus Cayman, and 911 versus Vanquish. The 911 versus Cayman article was pretty interesting. The cornering ability of the Cayman damn near got it the win on the track. It's really only a few ponies behind spanking the 911 on the twisties.

I also agree on the Z06 - it's a hell of a car! World class performance at a "reasonable" price. One thing to note is that every review I've read (including the Motor Trend comparo) mentions that the Z06 isn't necessarily ideal as a daily driver.
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:35 AM   #15
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But both IBM and Porsche made huge turnarounds. In the mid 90's Lou Gertsner the new CEO came in from American Express Travel Corp and turned them around. He took IBM from a company that wasted money on high rent downtown offices housing overpaid salespeople, and sent them home with a laptop and created a low expense environment of customer satisfaction, services and products the customers wanted.

In 1993 Porsche was at one of it's lowest points as well. After suffering through the 924/944/968/914 and the 928, which incidentally was supposed to replace the 911, Wendelin Wiedeking, Porsche CEO looked to the Boxster and 911, those two only to turn them around. The critical point being the 1993 Detroit Auto Show that debuted the all new prototype Boxster. The car was an extreme hit and the rest is history when it hit the US in '97. In Wendelin's own words, "I think the decision process for Porsche in the future is more based on the brand than on the real product. And anybody who knows sports cars knows Porsche. So we will keep the tradition alive."

I now ask: Is this a philosophy that will assure future chapters for Porsche history?...Not by the tone of this thread.
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:53 AM   #16
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"In Wendelin's own words, "I think the decision process for Porsche in the future is more based on the brand than on the real product. And anybody who knows sports cars knows Porsche. So we will keep the tradition alive."

I now ask: Is this a philosophy that will assure future chapters for Porsche history?...Not by the tone of this thread."

Managing your brand IS important. However, I think Porsche is not seeing the forest for the trees.

As Porsche manages the brand, it competitors continue to improve their cars at an alarming rate (alarming, that is, if you are Porsche).

PAY ATTENTION BOYS!

Put another way, I love driving the Boxster because of what it is, not how it relates to Porsches "fabled" history, or the 550 or whatever. It is simply a great car to drive.

When it stops being that, or if something eclipses it, I am SOOOOOOOOOOO gone!

History is nice, as history.
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:16 PM   #17
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BruceLee you are very right! This Motor Trend article really is the first ripple.
Porsche has big problem, even if no one buys the Z06 the fact that it so convincinlgy trounces the CarreraS (flat out beats it at Laguna Seca ) in every aspect but braking really is NO GOOD for the cred of Porsche's flag ship car.
THe 911 engine's limitation to produce power is going to be too big a disadvantage with the Z06 in position to ONLY GET BETTER.

I can see an attitude developing of "Porsche? yeah good... **if **you get a turbo or GT3..otherwise its just living off past glory"

Motor Trend isn't exaclty a controversial car mag and they use some very spicy language against the 911 "The 911 is dead Long live the Cayman".
I guarantee you the boys in Stuggart are following this and the pandora's box they unleashed very closely.


said it before but Porsche's strategy about holding back the mid engine cars may no longer be entirely under their control. I can already see many running the CaymanS instead of 911 for racing.

btw, I sat in C5, C6 and it was crap interior. THe Z06 (according to the article) has much more expensive interior treatment which the Magazine points to higher base price partly accounting for Chevy putting it in the 911 $$$ territory. Not the bargain basement exotic it was before.

also interesting was that MotorTrend said it was too loud and feisty for daily use while EVO said it was the only one they compared (GT3, Lotus Exige, Noble) that was useful for daily use. I guess they are more hardcore in Europe.
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:45 PM   #18
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Hi,

It's all Ebb and Flow. A Company riding high never anticipates a time when their fortunes wane, all the while they become the Benchmark which their competitors shoot for.

Add to this that greater Public Ownership causes Management to adopt Short Term Thinking and Goals, loosing some semblence of the Broader Picture.

Porsche's 'Miraculous' rise had much more to do with the Cayenne than it did with either the Boxster or 911. Boxster Sales have never been truly remarkable and the 911's Sales were slipping until just 18 mos. ago.

IBM's problems really began in the early '80's when their Corporate-tainted vision prevented them from ever seeing the PC overshadow the Main Frame and Mini-Frame - IBM's Bread & Butter. I mean the ThinkPad wasn't even introduced until 1992!

By the time they came to their senses, the Competition had already left them in a hole so deep that they never truly recovered. Their PC Manufacturing Business was sold to Lenovo Group Limited, formerly known as Legend Group Ltd., in the PRC, further widening our Trade Deficits.

But, back on point, if Porsche doesn't lose that Inbred Mentality, they could go the way of the Snail Darter in a relatively few years.

As Bruce rightly points out, it's time to Wake Up to what the Competition is offering and what the Consumer Wants. IMHO, the Snooze Alarm has been hit too many times already...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

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Old 03-10-2006, 05:34 PM   #19
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Indeed! You have to wonder if these boys from Stuttgart ever drive their competitors cars or read any magazines other than Panorama?
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Old 03-10-2006, 05:40 PM   #20
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Am I the only one that thinks, generally, Porsche customers aren't Vette folk? And that the Z06 (leaf springs?) is more of a threat to the Viper?
Apples to apples? What’s your constant? Price? Performance? Prestige?

There is no doubt in my mind that the Chevrolet has the most impressive numbers-to-price ratio out there. And I also doubt Porsche is scrambling and worrying about sales plummeting because of that. What is BMW doing about the threat of the Accord?

I could be missing the boat on this one, but I have to think Porsche is doing what they need to be doing at the moment (regardless of what we forum users/magazines think).

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