five alarm emergency for Lil B

I don't know if this will help you, but I did the very same thing about 20 years ago on an old nissan pickup.

I was pretty sure the cam didn't move, but was very sure the crank had. I could find the cam timing marks, but not the crank marker - So I inserted a long pencil (eraser side down) into the #1 piston spark plug hole, and gently rotated the crank until the piston pushed the pencil to it's highest point (tdc). Be careful, you have to keep a hand on the pencil, and keep it straight, if you put it in sidewides, it'll snap, and you'll have half a pencil in your cylinder - and make sure to break the lead tip off before you start.

another word of caution - don't rotate the crank "all the way around" to find tdc, rotate it back and forth, gently - make sure your spark plugs are all removed, or you'll feel pressure (at least you should be feeling lots of pressure with the plugs in) and think you're hitting something.

good luck, keep us posted

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

Cam cover is off, auxillary shaft was moved for sure, I have the Fiat crank tool made specially for turning the engine. What damage can the auxillary shaft do? I have not yet determined what it does, I was thinking oil pump. This car is a 1971 has 50,200 on it, no winters, I am now seriously concerned about the engine and I'm really not sure how to put this thing back together B, any other ideas?

The manual only says to recheck the timing after belt replacement, not how to correct any errors, or how to carefully do this. The bearing was rusted and ready to go, I'll be upset of I cause the demise of said engine trying to prevent the demise...

PS I think the pic you posted is a Eurospec, spiders didn't have round marker lights, they are rectangles in US form. assuming I don't wreck it, here's one of the best examples in the entire country.. I need to know the relationship of the crank pulley to the auxillary shaft timing mark, then I could just realign them, right?

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee32/firesphotons2/fiat001.jpg

[eightsandaces]

Thanks Fred, I'm reluctant to move the crank or cams independantly of each other as the valve timing should be right, I did not observe and spring movement of the camshafts and I know the crank didn't move. I just spoke to a local mechanic who told me the auxillary shaft drives the oil pump anf the distributor but cannot strike the crank, it's only the valves that are in danger. apparently the aux shaft alignment has more to do with the iginition timing than anything else.

My current plan? (which he said sounded good)

1) replace belt and tensioner as is.

2) remove plugs, hand turn crank slowly, observe timing marks, hope for smooth operation.

3) assuming the timing is correct, align marks for cams and crank, pull belt off of tensioner, turn aux pump to it's mark, reassemble, pray like hell...

I have a Fiat factory manual to work from, not as good as I wish it was..

this is a good plan, but a suggestion. Mark the crank pulley with a dab of white out (if it doesn't have a clear marking on it) and count how many turns you rotated the crank.

If you're timing is off, you car "rewind" the crank to the original position...it'll help you start over...

..I've done a few different belts on different models, and I don't think I've ever done one without at some point being completely worried I messed up - a little fear here is a good thing, considering the consequences of a mistake. I bet you've nailed it...keep us posted

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

My current plan? (which he said sounded good)

2) remove plugs, hand turn crank slowly, observe timing marks, hope for smooth operation.


I have a Fiat factory manual to work from, not as good as I wish it was..

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

this is a good plan, but a suggestion. Mark the crank pulley with a dab of white out (if it doesn't have a clear marking on it) and count how many turns you rotated the crank.

If you're timing is off, you car "rewind" the crank to the original position...it'll help you start over...

..I've done a few different belts on different models, and I don't think I've ever done one without at some point being completely worried I messed up - a little fear here is a good thing, considering the consequences of a mistake. I bet you've nailed it...keep us posted

On an interference engine you do NOT want to rotate the crank if the timing is off. That forces the pistons up into the open valves! If you have that issue for more than a few degrees, you need to remove the head, set the crank to TDC (different for many motors - the FIAT uses the #4 cylinder, NOT the #1), then rotate the cams (off the block) to their approximate positions before reinstalling the head.

yes, of course.

but if you're rotating the crank, and you're off by 1degree, it's possible to rotate the crank several times before the valves met the piston and feel any kind of resistance...so knowing how many times you turned the crank will allow you to return to the starting point.

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

On an interference engine you do NOT want to rotate the crank if the timing is off. That forces the pistons up into the open valves! If you have that issue for more than a few degrees, you need to remove the head, set the crank to TDC (different for many motors - the FIAT uses the #4 cylinder, NOT the #1), then rotate the cams (off the block) to their approximate positions before reinstalling the head.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

yes, of course.

but if you're rotating the crank, and you're off by 1degree, it's possible to rotate the crank several times before the valves met the piston and feel any kind of resistance...so knowing how many times you turned the crank will allow you to return to the starting point.

OK... we mostly agree. I just would not personally tell anyone who suspects a timing problem to rotate the crank, esp. on the net where I'm not able to see for myself how far off it may or may not be.

Another thing occurs to me though. If installing a belt, has the lister checked valve for adjustment? If not, and the car uses the old inverted bucket-type tappets (lots of Brit cars, SAABs etc. use this), it's necessary to pull the head to rotate the cams to check the valve clearances, then mic the shims to determine which have to be swapped and by how much. It's an ugly job which basically needs to be done twice to be sure everything's correct. If this is the case, your manual will give you an OK range for the valve clearances. If such, you want to set the valves to the most generous setting within the OK range because as the mileage piles up, the valves get pushed deeper and deeper into their seats closing the gap between the tappet and the cam lobe. Setting the clearances to the maximum allowable spec prolongs the time that the valves will remain in spec before needing to do the procedure again. I'm not certain the FIAT Twin uses this method, but if so, it's worth doing this work before installing the T-belt.

we 100% agree - but at some point you have to hand rotate the crank - it's just part of the job, and being able to return to the point where you might have been closest to TDC is of tremendous value.

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

OK... we mostly agree. I just would not personally tell anyone who suspects a timing problem to rotate the crank, esp. on the net where I'm not able to see for myself how far off it may or may not be.

[eightsandaces]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

On an interference engine you do NOT want to rotate the crank if the timing is off. That forces the pistons up into the open valves! If you have that issue for more than a few degrees, you need to remove the head, set the crank to TDC (different for many motors - the FIAT uses the #4 cylinder, NOT the #1), then rotate the cams (off the block) to their approximate positions before reinstalling the head.

How could it possibly be off that much is shut down, not moved and previously in synch? I'm going to email your pal, work net was down all afternoon.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

How could it possibly be off that much is shut down, not moved and previously in synch? I'm going to email your pal, work net was down all afternoon.

It may not be all that much off, but turning the crank is not the way to find that out. Think of the motor like a symphony of parts, when everything hits their mark, there's beautiful music, but when they are out of sync, the music (read performance) is awful and sometimes injurious to the parts.

We're on the internet here... you don't know me and I don't know you, your skill level or the actual positions of any of the various timing marks - only what you tell me. I'm not going to tell you anything which could injure your car. Would I turn my crank a degree of two - sure, but slowly with a socket and breaker bar trying to feel (as a safecracker would) what the internals are doing. At the slightest resistance, I'd stop. That's one reason I recommended you turn the crank rather than push the car in gear... you have no feel for what's going on until it's waay too late.

BTW, I'm not a friend of Mike Bouse, I've never met him. But, my late friend knew him or of him, and told me that he lived in MI and he would respond to emails sent to him on Fiat questions, plus I've seen his name mentioned - in some reverence - on some of the FIAT boards where he's offered to send procedures to those emailing him. I put it up here figuring it was worth a shot for you. I assume you probably already know this, but my friend also gave me the link to what he said was the best FIAT parts source in the country - C. Obert & Co. out in Cali - C. Obert & Co.

I don't have this stuff right at my fingertips, but in response to you, I went and reviewed a bunch of past correspondence and emails my late friend and I had exchanged through the years. It was kinda nice to be able to go back and re-read them and remember what good times we've had and what a truly good friend Owen was to me... R.I.P.

It is much, but better to find out rotating the crank by hand and finding out before you button up the engine. When you rotate by hand, you'll feel the slight resistance.

If you think the you did the job correctly, but you're missed by a little, finding out by rotating the crank by hand will prevent you from doing any major damage to the engine.

It's a "just in case I messed up" measure, it's something do after every timing belt job.

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

It may not be all that much off, but turning the crank is not the way to find that out.