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Old 02-06-2005, 12:56 PM   #1
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AN observation

Now let me start off by saying that I LOVE Porsche cars and look forward to closing a deal on a boxster soon as you can see by my other thread. One thing bothers me though. It seems if you buy a Honda or Toyota or even a BMW that people DO NO expect to have to fix these cars but yet with Porsches people always say make sure you have a couple thousand dollars stashed just in case you need to fix the car. WHY is that? I love the cars but shouldn't a car with that much prestige and cost associated with buying them be dependable? I realize that some people race them and run them down but not everyone does that. Are the drivetrains on these cars built that poorly? I have NEVER heard anyone refer to a Porsche drive train as bulllet proof. This is a very common phrase used towards say a M3 BMW. I know they are not the same car etc but what are your opinions about this touchy subject. I am just curious. Perhaps I read to much about the complaints of the car as not many write something when its good. I think I need something to give me peace of mine. if and when I buy one I want to be able to enjoy the car and not be scared to death it will break all the time.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to everyones feedback.

Bill

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Old 02-06-2005, 01:45 PM   #2
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1) M3 bulletproof ? uhuh...their engines have their issues....look around on forums...

2) Then you can have a look at this:

The Porsche Boxster is the winner of 2005’s respected car report conducted by the German Technical Inspections Association (TÜV). With a defect rating of 2.6 per cent, the mid-engine sports car displays the fewest significant defects in one of the TÜV’s main inspections. For this reason, the Association’s engineers have named the Porsche Boxster as “defect defiant” and thereby as the best car in the group of two to three year old vehicles. Positions two and three of this category went to the Mazda Demio (defect rating of 2.8 per cent) and the Audi A4 (defect rating of 3.2 per cent). For the second year running, the Porsche 911 won first place in the group of eight to nine year old as well as ten and eleven year old automobiles.

Summarized in the TÜV car report, the results are based on data gathered during 7.65 million main inspections carried out by the Association’s engineers on passenger cars registered in Germany in 2004. Though about 81 per cent of all vehicles examined at TÜV inspection stations pass without further ado, 18.7% of the inspected vehicles possess significant defects and represent a danger for road safety.

“For us, this result is the reward for and proof of our efforts to enhance quality over the past few years. Our aim is to ensure a high standard of quality not only in production, but also to lay the groundwork for a high-quality product as early as in the development phase,” said Wolfgang Dürheimer, member of the Executive Board of Management for Research and Development, with regard to the performance of the brand based in Zuffenhausen near Stuttgart.

Hope this helps...
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Old 02-06-2005, 02:42 PM   #3
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For me, I certainly would like to try to repair my own car. Here is the problem. I've had my car for about a year and a half. I have yet to see the engine in my Boxster. I think that definately says a lot.

Just a thought.
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:13 PM   #4
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Thank you thats what I was looking for. Like I said. You tend to only hear about the bad things never the good things. I dont mind fixing things. I just didnt want a money pit. Thanks for the time.

Bill
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:19 PM   #5
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Honda and Toyota are not comparable vehicles to the Boxster.

BMW M3s, and in fact, the 3 series have their mechanical issues.

To my knowledge, most if not all performance autos have lower reliability than low performance sedans, such as the Corollas, Civics etc.
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucelee
Honda and Toyota are not comparable vehicles to the Boxster.
True for the Civic and Corolla, but the Celica GT-S motor makes 100 hp per liter, and the RSX Type-S makes 105 hp/liter. The S2000 when it was in 2 liter form made 120 hp/liter. These are all very reliable cars. It's easy to think that Honda and Porsche aren't comparable cars, or that it's a Porsche so you must not expect it to be as reliable, but really that's not a valid excuse. Honda and Toyota do have far greater financial resources at their disposal so they may be able to afford more QA measures, but in terms of output and performance many other manufactuers get similar figures from their engines. Remember as well, the Lotus Elise is powered by that 1.8 liter VVT-i Toyota lump and it 's about the most direct competitor that the Boxster has.

Having said that I don't consider the Boxster to be an unreliable vehicle. It's just a fact of life that labor on a competent mechanic who knows how to work on these cars costs more. Parts for these cars cost more.
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:53 AM   #7
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my personal take on the situation is that , regardless of the car, I will have an extra 'reserve" saved for emergency purposes, fixing the car, etc...POrsche is a marque name and the downside is that any parts or even labor is significantly mroe than any otehr brand like a toyota or honda...

plus I owe a 99 boxster, no problems at all, just the yearly tuneups, oil changes, etc...
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:07 AM   #8
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[QUOTE=Jeannot]1)

The Porsche Boxster is the winner of 2005’s respected car report conducted by the German Technical Inspections Association (TÜV). With a defect rating of 2.6 per cent, the mid-engine sports car displays the fewest significant defects in one of the TÜV’s main inspections. For this reason, the Association’s engineers have named the Porsche Boxster as “defect defiant” and thereby as the best car in the group of two to three year old vehicles. QUOTE]

Wow now that's saying something. When I last visited Germany (Cologne and Dusseldorf) I was totally impressed with condition of virtually every car on the road. Every Mercedez taxi (with full leather) I was in was spotless inside and out. Every gas station was immaculate and generally car's that apeeared to be more than six years old were not to be found.
I get the impression that like in America the Boxster is not a principal car for most Germans, they probably have another car for daily use. The low mileage on most Boxsters probably means very few inspection failures. But even if the Boxster were driven everday (assuming you have allot of money for gas) I still think it would be the most reliable 2-3 year old sportscars made in Europe.
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Old 02-07-2005, 12:53 PM   #9
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I don't think it is so much that a Porsche is unreliable as it is that Porsche owners tend to be (relatively) meticulous about the condition of their car.
If you tend to like to drive your car until the wheels fall off, then you can probably do the same thing with a Boxster and not experience undue maintenance costs.
Most Porsche owners wouldn't think of taking their car to a Jiffy Lube to get the oil changed, so instead of paying maybe $50 for an oil change, they pay $200 at a Porsche specialist garage. What you get for the additional $150 is a warm and fuzzy that whoever worked on your car knew what he was doing, and you aren't likely to end up with the sump bolt stripped out because the stoner at Jiffy had his impact wrench turned up too high.
Before my current '99 Boxster, I had an '81 911 Targa. I had all the maintenance records for the car since 1985. When I sold the car in March of '04, the total spent on maintenance for the car since '85 was about $25,000. A large part of that cost was what I would call "discretionary" maintenance. It could have been delayed or maybe even not done at all, but the owner(s) of the car did what was right to keep the car in top shape.
I have owned my Boxster for about 9 months and have spent about $1200 on maintenance (30K maint., plus one 18" tire), and it needs another $800 part (one of those "discretionary" type things) to put it in perfect condition. It is right on track to have about $25k spent on it in the next 20yrs.
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Old 02-07-2005, 01:38 PM   #10
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Another factor to consider in the reliability of a Boxster compared to a Toyota or Honda is the sheer numbers of vehicles sold. Porsche has far, far fewer Boxsters on the road than Toyota has Celica GT's...therefore, there will always be more problems and fewer aftermarket parts and non-dealership repair shops.
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Old 02-07-2005, 02:47 PM   #11
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Talking

Parts Costs lesson

My 1994 Lexus SC400 needs trunk supports (these are two 12 inch shock absorbers.

Cost, $288 at the Lexus dealer.

I have done the same for a Box,

Cost? If I remember correctly, less than $100.

Such is life, no?
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Old 02-07-2005, 02:55 PM   #12
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Data from 2003. Surprise!

Domestic Cars Outpace Euros in Reliability Study
Up: GM, Ford Down: Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Volvo,




July 8, 2003
While Japanese-branded vehicles continue to dominate in terms of long-term vehicle quality, the Europeans have lost their edge over the U.S. domestic-branded vehicles, according to the latest J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study.

The 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership, finds that although there is near parity between U.S. Domestics and Europeans in terms of initial quality, substantial quality gaps appear between the Domestics and the Europeans in long-term durability. On average, models by domestic automakers outperform the Europeans by 49 problems per 100 (PP100) vehicles at three years of ownership.

Brand
Problems
Per 100

Porsche
103

Toyota
196

Honda
215

Nissan
258

BMW
262

GM
264

Subaru
266

AVERAGE
273

Ford
287

DaimlerChrysler
311

Mitsubishi
339

Hyundai
342

Isuzu
368

VW
378

Suzuki
403

Daewoo
421

Kia
509

"Conventional wisdom said that dependability was the property of the Japanese and Europeans," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates.

"While that’s still true for automakers like Toyota and Honda, it’s no longer the case for many of the Europeans. Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability, but many other European brands are bought based on a reputation for long-term quality and fall far short of even the average. This is in stark contrast to the results of the first vehicle dependability study, conducted in 1990, when Mercedes-Benz led the industry."

Toyota boasts nine models with top segment rankings, followed by Ford Motor Company and General Motors with three each, and American Honda and Porsche with one each. Lexus is the top-ranked nameplate for the ninth consecutive year. Porsche leads the corporate ranking, while Toyota leads among the full-range vehicle manufacturers. General Motors is the only domestic manufacturer to rank above the industry average in the corporate rankings, with 12 models finishing in the top three of the segment rankings, second only to Toyota Motor Sales with 13.

Other notable performances in the 2003 results include Subaru and GMC, which both performed considerably better when measured at three years than when they were measured at 90 days of ownership. At the other end of the spectrum is Mercedes-Benz, which experiences the largest quality gap between initial quality and long-term quality measurements. Also deteriorating more rapidly than the average vehicle are Audi and Volvo.

Some problems that occur much more frequently as vehicles age include excessive brake wear, air conditioning system issues, wind noise and the replacement of components not called for under the normal maintenance schedule. New problems that arise as vehicles age include issues with shocks and struts; faded, cracked or worn materials; worn or broken moldings; cracked and peeling paint; and various fluid leaks.

Long-term quality measures have a big consumer impact. Among new-vehicle buyers, 52 percent indicate that long-term durability is among their most important factors in choosing a vehicle. Further, among used-vehicle buyers, 42 percent report buying a used vehicle instead of a new vehicle because they felt that the quality of the used vehicle is as good as a new one. This is particularly true among luxury used-vehicle buyers.

"With the proliferation of long-term warranties being offered on new vehicles and the increasing popularity of manufacturer-sponsored used-vehicle certification programs, long-term quality issues are critical to manufacturers and their bottom lines," said Ivers.

"Manufacturers must align themselves with consumer expectations for durability. Long-term quality issues have a substantial impact on customer retention, even among ‘got to have’ models that seem impervious to quality issues at their introductions."

The 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study is based on responses from more than 55,000 original owners of 2000 model-year cars and light trucks. The study covers 147 specific problem symptoms grouped into nine major vehicle systems. For the first time, the study reviews models at three years of ownership instead of the historical four- to five-year period in order to better support manufacturer product improvement efforts in next-generation replacement models.

Headquartered in Westlake Village, Calif., J.D. Power and Associates is a global marketing information services firm operating in key business sectors including market research, forecasting, consulting, training and customer satisfaction. The firm’s quality and satisfaction measurements are based on responses from millions of consumers annually.


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Old 02-07-2005, 02:59 PM   #13
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Boxster enters second round
by Ben Alan


It’s little surprise that the Boxster topped the 2002 JD Power satisfaction and reliability survey - it really is a superb machine.
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Old 02-07-2005, 03:00 PM   #14
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Data, the breakfast of Champions!

Cars You Can Count On

New study ranks the most dependable makes and models

Which cars prove most reliable over the first five years? Lexus ranks highest in the most recent Vehicle Dependability Index Study, conducted by J.D. Power and Associates, a California-based market research firm.

Imports in general and Japanese makes in particular dominate the list of most-dependable nameplates. Of the 15 manufacturers ranking above average in J.D. Power’s study, eight are Japanese. Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Honda, and Toyota placed first through fifth, in order; Subaru, Nissan, and Mazda ranked 13th through 15th. Three European nameplates also scored above average: Porsche (6th), Jaguar (9th), and BMW (10th). Four of the top 15 were domestic makes: Buick (7th), Cadillac (8th), Lincoln (11th), and Mercury (12th).
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Old 02-07-2005, 04:39 PM   #15
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something different about Porsche..

i've owned various cars from 94 Supra 2x turbo to 740il. i now drive a 2000 boxster (my 2nd porsche???), 2005 Cayanne S (thats what i mean by ???), and a E500. my 740il was a nightmare. the problems i had on that car still makes me wanna light up a Marlboro Red. from blinkers, a/c, electricals, power seats, transmission, blown gaskets, etc. i did nothing to the supra, it ran like a toyota but after 96K miles, the engine was diagnosed with cancer and had to put it to sleep, sold it for 9K$$.
regarding part costs, my lexus ls430 brake job was $900 for front only, i literally thought the mechanic was joking.
i had my box for less than a year now and i spent about $1000. all on parts, did all the labor myself, but it was all for me, slotted rotors, blue pads, k&n filters, couple newer shinnier interior parts. but thing about the box is that i dont really mind it, i enjoy it, and i think the parts are reasonable on ebay.
anyway, i love the car, i cant stop talking about it, my brother has a 2002 996 but he wants a box now, you'll love it too Nidit.

ps. i LIKE my Cayanne S, its powerful, handles like a champ, but i still feel like i am driving a over price VW. any thoughts? i paid 62K out the door so i got a good deal on it.
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:56 AM   #16
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Sorry to hear about all the problems you had with your BMW 7 series.
I too own a BMW, 5 series. It's been really good to me. But I wanted to point out is I love BMW's this is now my 3rd car. I just recently purchase a summer car. My choice was a Z4 or maybe a boxster. Well, the boxster won. I was very dissatisfied with the Z4.
Hats off to Porsche! Excellent car
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Old 02-08-2005, 06:47 AM   #17
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The 7 series was beautiful and wonderful to drive. But mechanically, they are up there with Chrysler products. Too bad, they kind of give them away at dealer auctions because no dealer wants to fix them.

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