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Old 05-18-2007, 10:28 AM   #1
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Couple questions about Porsche...

1) 2.7l on the Boxster. Porsche is still managing to squeeze out power from this relatively small engine, but why not increase displacement a little? It's amazing they are holding their own in this class while still having barely more displacement than a Honda s2000.


2.9-3.0l would be great for increasing torque, power, and keeping up with the competition. So why is it that Porsche maintains the smaller displacement for all these years?




2) Does anyone else think Porsche is conservative with their redlines? All 911s, non-turbo and non-Gt3, redline at 7200. A nissan 350z has a redline of 7500. I think that these engines could easily handle 7500 and maintain the same reliability. Stiffening the valve springs won't hurt.


Even the gt3 is conservative with its 8200 redline. An engine like that is Ferrari-esque and should be going to, at minimum, 8500 (like an F430 or a 360)


Is there a reason for this? It would be cool to have a higher redline because it would help me with auto-crossing :-) (I'll explain if you want)




3) This may be a silly question, but what is the reason for the Gt3 using the 3.6l engine instead of the 3.8? Is the 3.6 in the Gt3 completely different than the other 3.6l engines or is it a highly tuned version?


I adore the GT3 and love everything about it, but I think using the 3.8l would help make it a better car (not that it isn't AMAZING already) and make it stand up better in its class. Again, the car probably doesn't need this, but it seems counter-progressive to be using the 3.6 in their flagship model.







Thanks and any insight will be appreciated :-)

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Old 05-18-2007, 10:32 AM   #2
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Porsche has an answer, it's called the "S" type! The Boxster S has a 3.2L. Does that answer you question? 3.4L for all you newer Boxster S owners.

Last edited by porsche986spyder; 05-18-2007 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:33 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist
3) This may be a silly question, but what is the reason for the Gt3 using the 3.6l engine instead of the 3.8? Is the 3.6 in the Gt3 completely different than the other 3.6l engines or is it a highly tuned version?
The 3.6L engine that the GT3 uses is basically the 996 Turbo engine sans turbo.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by porsche986spyder
Porsche has an answer, it's called the "S" type! The Boxster S has a 3.2L. Does that answer you question?

Hey, genius, the Boxster S has a 3.4l while the non-S maintains its 2.7l.



Nice try, though.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:38 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist
Hey, genius, the Boxster S has a 3.4l while the non-S maintains its 2.7l.



Nice try, though.

Yes, but you responded to quick. I fixed my statement. 3.2 for 01-04! Genius! 3.4 for 05 and up.

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Old 05-18-2007, 10:43 AM   #6
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Your statement is still wrong. The 3.4l is new for '07





That's part of my point. They increased displacement on the S and only added a few HP to the same 2.7l.



The other part is that, independent of the high-end version, the base Boxster still trails its class in this category despite being as pricey.



Now it still leads its class in other departments (minus a Lotus elise) but a little bump in displacement might be useful?


Or what about a detuned version of the 3.2l? Shrug.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:47 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist
Your statement is still wrong. The 3.4l is new for '07





That's part of my point. They increased displacement on the S and only added a few HP to the same 2.7l.



The other part is that, independent of the high-end version, the base Boxster still trails its class in this category despite being as pricey.



Now it still leads its class in other departments (minus a Lotus elise) but a little bump in displacement might be useful?


Or what about a detuned version of the 3.2l? Shrug.
I'm just being sarcastic. I did say "AND UP" meaning 07.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:53 AM   #8
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I feel your pain. I too wish I had bought the "S" type for the added HP. Even though my year 01, 2.7 still has even less HP than the newer 05 and up base model, I would be happy with it. You have more HP than my car.
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Old 05-18-2007, 11:12 AM   #9
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I think the problem with your statement is that you're not correctly identifying the competition.

The base 987 2.7 with 245 hp goes up against:

SLK280 - 228 hp
BMW Z4 3.0 - 215 hp
Audi TT 2.0 - 200hp
Honda S2000 -237hp

Yes, it's the most expensive, but it's also got the most horses.

The Boxster S goes up against:

SLK350 - 268hp
Z4 3.0 SI (255hp)
Audi TT 3.2 - 250hp
Nissan 350Z 306hp

Once again, the most expensive but with 295 hp, more than competitive.

The Boxster S also is forced to go up agains the super variants and while short on power, still more than holds it's own in performance. Porsche obvioulsy doesn't make a third variant of the Boxster, because it doesn't need to (read previous sentence).

AMGSLK55 - 355hp
Z4M - 330hp

Basically, while the competition (in some cases) covers the full roadster spectrum with three variants, Porsche does it with two, which kind of puts their models in between the slots created by the competition. I'd love to see a super variant on the Boxster, as would we all, but alas....
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Old 05-18-2007, 11:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist
1) 2.7l on the Boxster. Porsche is still managing to squeeze out power from this relatively small engine, but why not increase displacement a little? It's amazing they are holding their own in this class while still having barely more displacement than a Honda s2000.


2.9-3.0l would be great for increasing torque, power, and keeping up with the competition. So why is it that Porsche maintains the smaller displacement for all these years?


Thanks and any insight will be appreciated :-)

Porsche has a history, as far back as you care to look, of dribbling out little performance improvements over a period of years to make the new model just a teensy bit better than the last one. This plainly is a marketing strategy intended to keep the product line fresh and to extract the last dollar from an adoring public.
To an extent this is "good", if that's the word, for us as buyers of their product, since it takes a while for the old model to get too much outdistanced, performancewise, by the new models.
As an example, the 356 went from 1100cc, to 1200, 1300, 1500, and finally 1600cc.
The air-cooled 911 was intro'd at 2000cc, then 2.4, 2.7, 3.0, 3.2, 3.4, and finally the 3.6 and 3.8 engines. I think that was about the limit the air-cooled sixes could handle without a major re-design.
The Boxster is probably going to remain a couple of steps behind wherever the 911 is at. As the 911 engine steps up in size and power, the Box will too, but always a little bit behind.

PS - I think I missed one; I think there was a 2.2 liter 911, too.

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Old 05-18-2007, 12:06 PM   #11
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Not to highjack your thread here, but is it safe to say that the New Cayman and New Boxster are basically the same car except for the body/rear end and built on hard top? I've looked at both cars and even the "S" models came out at the same time. Same car? Different shell? Looks like it. Even the interiors are the same.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:07 PM   #12
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Good points Ronzi. I agree with that all the way. They are an evolution company in all aspects of design/performance.

I remember reading why Porsche went with 3.6L vs. 3.8L in GT3 and I think it was because of the split case version of the motor as well as dry sump lubrication if my memory serves, but not certain so you guys don't hammer me if I'm wrong!

Not sure about the RPM deal, but the horizontally opposed motors make good torque throughout the rev range vs. most V or inline motors that you are comparing redlines to the Porsche motors.

Have you driven an S2000? If you can get/stay in the 7-9k range on the tach, you are ok, otherwise you are having your lunch eaten. Not as fun to drive, period. I compared them to 986 when I was looking and to me, no contest.

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Old 05-18-2007, 01:43 PM   #13
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I don't think that's so much because it's an inline motor...



Look at a BMW Z4 si. 3.0l i-6, just as smooth as a flat-6 and a naturally balanced configuration (like a flat-6)


Good torque throughout :-)



The problem with the S2k is that there just isn't enough displacement to make more torque. You can only get so much force out of it...
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:56 PM   #14
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I don't understand why Porsche had to make the Boxster a different car to the Carrera at all.
With the cars being nearly the same from the seats forward, they could have simply called the Boxster the Carrera Roadster alla the Carrea Cabriolet or maybe even called it the Carrera MR and Carrera MR-S.
This way they could have avoided the whole 'putting a smaller engine' in the Boxster issue and simply stuck a 3.6 or 3.8 into the roadster.
The flood of Boxster sales that came in could have been spent to drive down the cost of Carrera engines and increase profits EVEN MORE. Why go through all the trouble of having to engineer an all new Boxer engine with all its expense and the added expense of having to revamp the engines in 2000? No doubt building an aditional 100,000 (already designed) Carrera engines would have made more money and made allot of Boxster customers happy. Two birds with one stone...
Did producing 2.5 and 2.7 engines really cost that much less than the 3.6 and 3.8? We aren't talking huge power differences here...

If I were in charge I would have every Porsche made running on the GT1 Race Block found only in the GT3 and TT, true dry sump. If you're going to build expensive sports cars...build expensive sports cars.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectlap
I don't understand why Porsche had to make the Boxster a different car to the Carrera at all.
With the cars being nearly the same from the seats forward, they could have simply called the Boxster the Carrera Roadster alla the Carrea Cabriolet or maybe even called it the Carrera MR and Carrera MR-S.
This way they could have avoided the whole 'putting a smaller engine' in the Boxster issue and simply stuck a 3.6 or 3.8 into the roadster.
The flood of Boxster sales that came in could have been spent to drive down the cost of Carrera engines and increase profits EVEN MORE. Why go through all the trouble of having to engineer an all new Boxer engine with all its expense and the added expense of having to revamp the engines in 2000? No doubt building an aditional 100,000 (already designed) Carrera engines would have made more money and made allot of Boxster customers happy. Two birds with one stone...
Did producing 2.5 and 2.7 engines really cost that much less than the 3.6 and 3.8? We aren't talking huge power differences here...

If I were in charge I would have every Porsche made running on the GT1 Race Block found only in the GT3 and TT, true dry sump. If you're going to build expensive sports cars...build expensive sports cars.
Porsche already had the Cabriolet available for the wind-in-the-hair 911 folks, and sold that at something like a $10k PREMIUM over the price of the 911 coupe.
How could they possibly justify the price of a 911 Cab if they sold a Box with the same engine and the same, or better, performance at a price $20k LESS than the 911 coupe? They would have destroyed the market for the Cab, a model which accounts for over half the 911 sales in the US. Big, big loss in sales dollars.
The obvious answer is to hobble the bottom-of-the-line Boxster with an undersized (2.5 liter), underpowered (201hp at intro.) engine so that it would be no threat to the 911.
Their only mistake, marketing-wise, was that they made the early Boxster and the first-gen 996 Carrera TOO similar. From the front the only difference was the narrow air intake slit in the middle of the 996 bumper. It really ticked-off the 911 folks to have their $80k Carrera Cab mistaken for a $45k Boxster.

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Old 05-18-2007, 06:22 PM   #16
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Product line decisions are made YEARS in advance. By 1991, Porsche new that the door was closing on the 968 and 928 leaving Porsche with just a 911.

Also, in 1991-1993 were severely POOR economic years. Global recessions, high build costs, labor etc were killing porsche. Thoughts of Merecedes or VW buying Porsche were a very real possiblity.

The only way to expand their model line ups was to make parts common to both. To the detriment of 911 fans, this meant that the 911 (996) and Boxster (986) were to look alike. Even more detrimental to 996 fans, was that the 986 came out first. The sucess of Porsche's 993 (911) allowed them the luxury to NOT rush the 996 to market. Ideally both cars would have come out at the same time, not a couple years apart.

The Boxster was has widly succeeded in expanding Porsche's model line up (not many manufacturers can be sucessful with only one product) and their bottom line.


As for the other, original questions,

1) Economy of scale is part of it. That's why they got rid of the 3.2 in the 987S. Simplify product line up. One base motor.

I would also wager that the "next" base boxster will enjoy another diplacement boost, perhaps to a 3.0L as you mention.

The original 986 had a 2.5l with 201hp. Then a 2.7 with 217.. then with 228, and in the 987 with 240 and now 245, 10 years later, the base motor has nearly 45 more hp. Thats a nice way of improving the breed without completely outdating the previous version. Heck, the next base Boxster might have a 3.0l with 260hp... you never know

2) I don't think Porsche is conservative with redlines. My 3.0L 911 redline was 6250. My 2.7 Boxster redline is 7200. 7200 is a pretty high rev limit in my opinion.

3) The GT3 motor is NOT the same motor as the regular 996/997. It uses the same architecture as the GT2 (turbo) and regular Twin Turbo. This motor harkens back to the GT1 motor of the late 1990s.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist
Hey, genius, the Boxster S has a 3.4l while the non-S maintains its 2.7l.



Nice try, though.

That's news to me. My 2000 Boxster S has a 3.2L M96.21 engine. The 2000 - 2004 Boxster S has the 3.2L
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:30 PM   #18
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The Boxster is not all about HP. It has respectable HP but it is designed to excel in handling and pure sports car driving enjoyment.
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Old 05-19-2007, 06:37 AM   #19
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With Porsche, it is all about the money.

You can bet that drives all engine decisions.
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Old 05-20-2007, 05:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD987
I think the problem with your statement is that you're not correctly identifying the competition.

The base 987 2.7 with 245 hp goes up against:

SLK280 - 228 hp
BMW Z4 3.0 - 215 hp
Audi TT 2.0 - 200hp
Honda S2000 -237hp

Yes, it's the most expensive, but it's also got the most horses.

The Boxster S goes up against:

SLK350 - 268hp
Z4 3.0 SI (255hp)
Audi TT 3.2 - 250hp
Nissan 350Z 306hp

Once again, the most expensive but with 295 hp, more than competitive.

The Boxster S also is forced to go up agains the super variants and while short on power, still more than holds it's own in performance. Porsche obvioulsy doesn't make a third variant of the Boxster, because it doesn't need to (read previous sentence).

AMGSLK55 - 355hp
Z4M - 330hp

Basically, while the competition (in some cases) covers the full roadster spectrum with three variants, Porsche does it with two, which kind of puts their models in between the slots created by the competition. I'd love to see a super variant on the Boxster, as would we all, but alas....


I disagree here. Just because the Boxster "corresponds" to those models does not mean it is the direct competitor to them.


In reality, the base Boxster will be competing with the Z4 si ($42,000) and the SLK350 ($48,000) while the SLK280 and Z4 are in a slightly lower class.


They have more variants, but the Boxster doesn't come in until the "second variant" merely due to price similarities. That's what matters to consumers, after all.


The Boxster S would compete with the likes of the M roadster and SLK55. It does this well, despite having less horses, it's more car than both (and that's saying a lot because the M roadster is a hell a of a lot of car)


If you look at comparison tests, it's usually between an M roadster or M coupe and Boxster/Cayman S.


That's what I think anyhow.






Thanks for the answers, everyone.

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