RMS sleeve? Scratched case wall, now what? - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

Xcellr8 · 03-10-2016, 06:40 AM

Help needed. While removing the rear main seal my drill slipped and scratched the wall of the case where the rms will fit. I've used a little emery cloth to try to remove/smooth the scratch, but will not be able to remove it 100% with that method. Rock Auto shows a crankshaft repair sleeve, but looking at it, I can't make sense of how it is used.

Anyone know anything about crankshaft repair sleeves and/or how to address the problem I've created? Your knowledge, experience, and idea are appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe

BYprodriver · 03-10-2016, 07:11 AM

I'm guessing the crank sleeve is for the front snout & not designed specifically for a M96 crank.

You'll just have to install the new RMS the best you can.

spendy · 03-10-2016, 10:21 AM

If I am understanding you correctly, you don't need to repair the crank, so whatever a crank repair sleeve is that isn't what is needed.

I would use a bit of sealant to fill whatever gap is created by the scratch in the case.

JFP in PA · 03-10-2016, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spendy

If I am understanding you correctly, you don't need to repair the crank, so whatever a crank repair sleeve is that isn't what is needed.

I would use a bit of sealant to fill whatever gap is created by the scratch in the case.

Regardless of the reason, if you are using the updated PTFE seal, never use any type of sealants. One of the quickest ways to get one of these to leak is to use sealants.

Crank sleeves are used when a seal has worn a grove into the crank itself, making it impossible for the seal to work. They are at best a stop gap measure, and will not address your problem.

Gilles · 03-10-2016, 11:15 AM

Xceller,

It seems that you have a delicate situation since the surface where the outer seal sits against it has a small scratch, and following JFP comments you cannot use any sealant...

Thinking loud.. perhaps you may want to try a small dab of JB Weld to fill the scratch and after is completely dry, then polishing the surface with 600 grit.. perhaps someone with more experience will chip in as I have never tried it but sometimes you have to be creative..

Good luck!

spendy · 03-10-2016, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Regardless of the reason, if you are using the updated PTFE seal, never use any type of sealants. One of the quickest ways to get one of these to leak is to use sealants.

.

I was picturing that the gap he has is between the case and the outside of the RMS. The outside of the RMS looks to be a steel ring coated with rubber. I don't see how a bit of sealant in one spot would cause any leakage. Then again, if it is a small enough scratch the rubber on the outside of the rms might fill it.

What I have heard is that the PTFE RMS surface that touches the crank should be installed dry, but that's not the part of the RMS I am referring to.

JFP in PA · 03-10-2016, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spendy

I was picturing that the gap he has is between the case and the outside of the RMS. The outside of the RMS looks to be a steel ring coated with rubber. I don't see how a bit of sealant in one spot would cause any leakage. Then again, if it is a small enough scratch the rubber on the outside of the rms might fill it.

What I have heard is that the PTFE RMS surface that touches the crank should be installed dry, but that's not the part of the RMS I am referring to.

The PTFE seals are known to leak easily, even around their circumference, with as little as a finger print on them. Unless the case bore is clean, dry, and free of sealant or other contaminant, they will leak; that is their one major downside, the installation has to be correct, no contamination of any kind. There is a reason the PTFE seals come with a blue plastic ring that protects their inner circumference.

Meir · 03-10-2016, 04:21 PM

Anyone has by any chance the installation instructions for the new seal, using the updated Porsche RMS tool?

Jamesp · 03-10-2016, 05:14 PM

I was being stupid, sorry for the interruption.

Meir · 03-10-2016, 05:24 PM

Thanks JFP.
Was wondering if you have the detailed procedure.
I have done it twice with the tool, but I'm still not sure about the blue plastic ring.
Does it stay on the seal and mounted on the crack with the tool?
That's the way I did it and wondering if it's the correct way.

JFP in PA · 03-11-2016, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meir

Thanks JFP.
Was wondering if you have the detailed procedure.
I have done it twice with the tool, but I'm still not sure about the blue plastic ring.
Does it stay on the seal and mounted on the crack with the tool?
That's the way I did it and wondering if it's the correct way.

The tool is designed with the blue plastic ring in mind. You slide the new PTFE onto part #5 above with the ring still in place before attaching the tool to the crank; after the installation, you will find the blue ring still on part #5 when you remove it from the back of the crank.

The blue (or sometimes green) ring is there specifically to protect the inside of the PTFE seal from picking up any contamination like lint or fingerprints during the installation process, which is critical to the seal successfully working. We have installed literally hundreds of the PTFE seals and have never had an issue, but that said, we have also had to reinstall several that were originally done DIY by the car's owners which subsequently leaked. Most of the time, the problem was associated with the seal either not being in straight or installed at the correct depth, but we have also seen several the were leaking badly because someone decided to use sealant around the outside circumference, or installed them dirty. These seals work extremely well when installed correctly, but are not at all tolerant to any form of contamination or poor installation techniques.

[IMG]http://www.****************************************************.com/mm5/graphics/00000002/rmsbig.jpg[/IMG]

Gelbster · 03-15-2016, 03:18 PM

Very useful insight JFP. Not one failure when correctly installed.
Got to wonder if for the shade-tree mechanics the old non-PTFE seal is a better choice.? O.k. it may weep a bit and will not last as long but at least it won't(?) fail quickly if it gets contaminated during installation?

JFP in PA · 03-15-2016, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelbster

Very useful insight JFP. Not one failure when correctly installed.
Got to wonder if for the shade-tree mechanics the old non-PTFE seal is a better choice.? O.k. it may weep a bit and will not last as long but at least it won't(?) fail quickly if it gets contaminated during installation?

Only problem is that Porsche discontinued the old style seal some time ago, so finding one is going to be an issue.

We have seen several DIY PTFE seal installations that were fine, probably because the people that did them took the time to learn about the new seal and what not to do with them. You should never be afraid of something that requires a little understanding and care to complete; the IMS retrofit is a perfect example. Those that take the time and do it right don't seem to have problems; those that don't, well not so much..........

Gelbster · 03-15-2016, 05:10 PM

"Only problem is that Porsche discontinued the old style seal some time ago, so finding one is going to be an issue"
There is a Made in China seal on Ebay..... :-).

jaykay · 03-15-2016, 07:58 PM

I had the new style put in....Intially there were problems. It blew out after a track day which was very disconcerting. Nothing to do but drop the tranny. Upon inspection apparently this was due to incorrect installation depth. Normally they just don't come out on their own.

Thereafter I have had no issues with the new type of seal in my older car. If the install is done correctly there is no need to fear the new type....I say this even after my close call experience.

Just thinking aloud
Can you post a picture of the flaw? What is the order magnitude of its depth? Does it go from one edge of the seal bore to the other or is it confined to the middle. If the flaw is: very fine and properly dressed such that no damage to the seal will occur on installation; there is no leak path from one end of the bore to the other, then perhaps you are okay.

JFP in PA · 03-16-2016, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelbster

"Only problem is that Porsche discontinued the old style seal some time ago, so finding one is going to be an issue"
There is a Made in China seal on Ebay..... :-).

And there are also Chinese water pumps, AOS, coolant tanks, etc. available as well, and we already know how that turns out......

B6T · 03-16-2016, 02:26 AM

Going to be doing this tonight. I have a new OEM Porsche seal ready to go, complete with blue inner ring intact.

My plan is to clean the crank OD and the case bore with rubbing alcohol, twice. But do I install the seal dry on the OUTER circumference as well? No clean engine oil to help slide it into place?

JFP in PA · 03-16-2016, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B6T

Going to be doing this tonight. I have a new OEM Porsche seal ready to go, complete with blue inner ring intact.

My plan is to clean the crank OD and the case bore with rubbing alcohol, twice. But do I install the seal dry on the OUTER circumference as well? No clean engine oil to help slide it into place?

Bone dry & without any sealant

Gelbster · 03-16-2016, 07:27 AM

No oil required because the PTFE is already slippery enough to fit ?
But you will need the correct tool to successfully fit the new seal.There are accounts of people trying to tap it in with just a hammer and a drift - they often don't go well.
Over on RennTech 986 Boxster tech forum(Not Rennlist!)there are details for a home-made pvc pipe tool to set the seal to the correct depth and square to the cranckase/halves. If you don't have the Porsche tool , I suggest you at least need the home made one.

JFP in PA · 03-16-2016, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelbster

No oil required because the PTFE is already slippery enough to fit ?
But you will need the correct tool to successfully fit the new seal.There are accounts of people trying to tap it in with just a hammer and a drift - they often don't go well.
Over on RennTech 986 Boxster tech forum(Not Rennlist!)there are details for a home-made pvc pipe tool to set the seal to the correct depth and square to the cranckase/halves. If you don't have the Porsche tool , I suggest you at least need the home made one.

PTFE is self lubricating.

You can make a perfectly serviceable tool out of $4 CPVC pipe coupling and your old flywheel bolts that will install the seal correctly. This was written up here and on other sites more than once.

The biggest problem people encounter is that they do not research what they need to know about a project like this, and move ahead like a bull in a china shop, which can be a path to heartaches. Some shops even act this way; we had another shop blow the installation three times on one car before they called me. I went over and checked the case bore to make sure it was still round, and that it and the crank were clean and not damaged by all the attempts, and then installed a new seal in engine in about 10 min., and it only took that long because they kept asking questions as I did the install. That one worked perfectly.

The correct way to install this seal has been written up on multiple sites and in Excellence Magazine, so the information is out there.