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Old 03-20-2015, 06:45 PM   #1
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Yet another oil thread *caution* science content

Here's an article to add to your oil knowledge if you're interested in such things.

Addressing long-standing mysteries behind anti-wear motor oil additive -- ScienceDaily
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Old 03-20-2015, 07:58 PM   #2
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And the high detergent oils defeat the ZDDP and aggravate the foaming problem for the M96
The Truth About Zinc & Motor Oil - Driven Racing Oil
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Old 03-21-2015, 04:05 AM   #3
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Good reading material on ZDDP Gelbster. Reading both of these items back to back is eye opening, and makes me wonder if the Mobil1 I buy today is the same oil as the Mobil1 recommended by Porsche. The oil formulation is definitely critical if you intend to keep you car for the long run and limit wear.
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Old 03-21-2015, 03:43 PM   #4
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The geek site Bobistheoilguy has many discussions of Mobil 1.I am not a tribologist but it seems that Mobil 1 has too much detergent(=foaming) to use in the M96 .
Joe Gibbs DT40 is touted as perfect for the M96 but their tech info does not mention specific formulation details to minimize foaming.
Some oils that are specifically formulated to minimize foaming/aeration ,seem(??) suitable for the M96 and are more widely available at retail stores. These are the turbo diesel oils specifically recommended for Ford TD trucks.Ford had a foaming issue and these oils address that. Here is a link to some of those:
PowerStroke
I am not recommending any particular oil ,just sharing what I stumbled across.
There seems to be some confusion about the cause of foaming - over-filling,use of after-market additives etc. Anything we do to minimize foaming seems a good plan for the lifespan of both the AOS and the engine.
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Old 03-21-2015, 04:54 PM   #5
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I'm stubborn headed and have stuck with Mobil 1 0W-40 in my car. You got me looking at the Joe Gibbs DT40 and it seems that's the only oil Jake Raby puts in his Porsche engines.

I might make a change due to Jake Raby using it.
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Old 03-21-2015, 08:23 PM   #6
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From the study I have done(I am no expert!) there is ample technical basis for concluding that JGDT40 is a much better choice than Mobil 1 for the M96. BITOG suggest the Mobil 1 formulation has changed since it was first introduced-that may be significant?
I can't imagine Jake would recommend anything without strong technical validity. He would be the world's worst snake oil salesman.
I am just interested if there are any equally good(or better) alternatives to the JGDT40.
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:42 PM   #7
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I think I'm going to make the change on my next oil change. Is the Joe Gibbs DT40 only sold in the 1qt bottles? That seems to be the only way I have found it and the best price here?

Driven Racing Oil 02407, Driven Synthetic European Sports Car Oil | Driven Racing Oil

I like that I can get Mobil 1 in the 5qt bottle as it makes taken the used oil to the auto parts store easy.
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Old 03-22-2015, 06:29 AM   #8
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I'm stubborn headed and have stuck with Mobil 1 0W-40 in my car. You got me looking at the Joe Gibbs DT40 and it seems that's the only oil Jake Raby puts in his Porsche engines.

I might make a change due to Jake Raby using it.
Don't buy it because Jake uses it, buy it for its superior ZDDP content and better film strength than most of the highly touted synthetics on the market.
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Old 03-22-2015, 08:56 AM   #9
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Don't buy it because Jake uses it, buy it for its superior ZDDP content and better film strength than most of the highly touted synthetics on the market.
All that stuff goes over my head. I understand the weight part, but the rest is gibberish to me. So I have to really on what the Porsche specialist recommend.

That's the one thing that worries me about the Joe Gibbs DT40 5W-40. I changed to Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and got engine clatter at start up. Went back to Mobil 1 0W-40 and no engine clatter.

I did read Redline 5W-40 will stop engine clatter some people were having, not sure what they were using previously.
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Old 03-22-2015, 09:35 AM   #10
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......I changed to Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and got engine clatter at start up. Went back to Mobil 1 0W-40 and no engine clatter.......
What I read is the ZDDP additives are best for our engines. They build/create/generate a film/surface barrier/slime (whatever you want to think of it as) that protects the multiple metal parts as they are rubbing against each other. The high detergents levels in a High Mileage oil wash away the "film/surface barrier/slime".

That's my summary - I will now runaway from the grenade that is an oil discussions......
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Old 03-22-2015, 11:11 AM   #11
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I think you first have to to understand what numbers like 0W-40 are. Than you'll have to understand that these numbers are only a very rough indicator. Cinematic viscosity, pourpoint and other indicators will determine an oil much more. There are also things like detergents, friction reducer…

Next problem is that oil manufacturers never will tell you how their oils are formulated in detail. And each oil manufacturers will say his one is the best. So if you read things on the internet please allways check who has written the artilce and what might have been his intention.

ZDDP (zinc-dialkyl-dithio-phosphat) is also available as an oil additiv for regular motor oils. Also there a a lot of oil manufacturers that offer oil with ZDDP for classic cars.

They put ZDDP out of the oil, because zinc will destroy catalysators within a short time. So if you don't have emission laws in your county/country, there is nothing against the old school ZDDP oils. If not, maybe you should think twice.

And yeah - another oil thread.
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Old 03-22-2015, 12:58 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Smallblock454 View Post
I think you first have to to understand what numbers like 0W-40 are. Than you'll have to understand that these numbers are only a very rough indicator. Cinematic viscosity, pourpoint and other indicators will determine an oil much more. There are also things like detergents, friction reducer…

Next problem is that oil manufacturers never will tell you how their oils are formulated in detail. And each oil manufacturers will say his one is the best. So if you read things on the internet please allways check who has written the artilce and what might have been his intention.

ZDDP (zinc-dialkyl-dithio-phosphat) is also available as an oil additiv for regular motor oils. Also there a a lot of oil manufacturers that offer oil with ZDDP for classic cars.

They put ZDDP out of the oil, because zinc will destroy catalysators within a short time. So if you don't have emission laws in your county/country, there is nothing against the old school ZDDP oils. If not, maybe you should think twice.

And yeah - another oil thread.
You just threw a curve ball in me changing oils lol.
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Old 03-22-2015, 01:06 PM   #13
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You just threw a curve ball in me changing oils lol.
The impact of ZDDP the cats is slow and over time, it does not happen overnight; so the question you need to ask yourself is are you more concerned about having to change your cats, or your engine, and then make your choice about oils.
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Old 03-22-2015, 01:10 PM   #14
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Ummmm, I'd choose the change cats option.

Thanks JFP.
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Old 03-22-2015, 03:05 PM   #15
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I use Driven products exclusively... That's not a recommendation, I don't give a damn what you use unless you have my engine. Here if someone requests some other oil, I send them to another facility where the person at the controls cares less about what they create. I'll use nothing else.

Having developed these oils alongside Lake Speed Jr. I know what has gone into them, and how we are constantly working on the better formula.

I do the development for my engine program, and Gibbs will make anything we want in return for our assistance.

That said, I have NEVER seen a cat on a German car fail due to zinc and phosphorus content elevations... We have ran zinc as high as 2700 ppm and still no failures.

Zinc seems to only kill Asian car cats.
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Old 03-22-2015, 05:37 PM   #16
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That's cool Jake.

For the average consumer is it only available to purchase in the 1qt bottles?
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Old 03-22-2015, 06:32 PM   #17
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That's cool Jake.

For the average consumer is it only available to purchase in the 1qt bottles?
I'm not sure.. We never sell things, except engines.

We get it in drums, but we keep cases (of quarts) to ship away with cars after we build the engines. You can buy the DRIVEN products at LN Engineering, or on Amazon
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Old 03-22-2015, 06:45 PM   #18
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I looked around, seems it only comes in the 1qt bottles. Best price I could find on it is from Jegs.

Driven Racing Oil 02407, Driven Synthetic European Sports Car Oil | Driven Racing Oil

No worries of engine clatter at start up? With Mobil 1 0W-40 I have no engine clatter at start up.
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Old 03-22-2015, 06:46 PM   #19
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Just quarts from what I can tell, I have been getting from Amazon but the price on quarts went up so I bought a case from Summit with free shipping, just got it the other day.
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Old 03-22-2015, 07:03 PM   #20
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Ummmm, I'd choose the change cats option.

Thanks JFP.
I've heard new front CATs are $4000 each....
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