Hydraulic cam followers

[Gelbster]

Markus ,
Thank you for your research . I wish you had been involved when I was stumbling through this subject solo last summer.
The YoYo link in my previous post shows the Febi-Bilstein numbers also.

[Jake Raby]

I urge anyone doing these hybrid lifter installations to closely measure the dimensions of the lifter crown. The part numbers won't tell you much of anything when it comes to precision differences between units.

The lifter crown is very important to lifter rotation, and therefore, life.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

I urge anyone doing these hybrid lifter installations to closely measure the dimensions of the lifter crown. The part numbers won't tell you much of anything when it comes to precision differences between units.

The lifter crown is very important to lifter rotation, and therefore, life.

Very interesting comment!

Is this because when the lifter does not rotate, it will wear prematurely on a single spot?

Thank you!

[jimk04]

PET lists the same number, all 24 so both exhaust and inlet, across all 986 engines.

[jimk04]

Today I had a look at the lifters I have here out of a 99/2000 3.4.

Marked up INA 577.16. When I google the 577.9 mentioned in a previous post, I find nothing, but the 577.16 does come up.

I watched those you tube videos, very interesting to the point today I dismantled a few, and they would all seem serviceable.

One word of warning I would heed if rebuiling lifters, in one video the guy uses a magnet to keep holdof all the small parts....DONT DO THIS....the spring and ball for the check valve are SO small that if they become magnetized, I would imagine would effect their operation.

The other video, the guy says not to open up the relief valve element, but to me this step is very necessary to successfully renovate a stuck lifter, as you need to clean this out if it's gunged up with old oil.

I also purchased a BGA lifter today so I will have a good compare tomorrow against the INA.

Also got my shop to speak to Febi Bilstein about the ones they list, hoping they would be INA, but the technical line said that they had them made for themselves....?

[Jake Raby]

Now for the funny part.. When approaching INA at the International Motorsport Show a few months ago, they denied ever building this lifter, or even having a part number for it.

Be less concerned with the hydraulic properties, and more concerned with the physical properties of the lifter crown. The surface finish also matters, especially during break in/ work hardening. I have seen some of the replacement lifters that literally had a surface that was achieved with a scotchbrite wheel. Thats what you'll get when you pay for a cheap lifter, and its no way to achieve a proper roughness average.

I get calls about this all the time. The quickest way to cost yourself thousands of dollars is by trying to save a couple hundred. We call it "Stupidity tax" around here, and it gets paid a lot.

[linderpat]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

.... The quickest way to cost yourself thousands of dollars is by trying to save a couple hundred. We call it "Stupidity tax" around here, and it gets paid a lot.

This is worthy of a signature quote. There is nothing more true. On cars as highly engineered and constructed as Porsches, I rarely consider anything other than OE Porsche parts, especially for critical areas such as drive train or suspension. Exceptions are parts developed by reputable vendors and used with good results over long periods of time, or Audi/VW parts that are often the same but labled with different part numbers. Unless a part is NLA, there are few reasons to deviate from spec. Remember, you don't have to purchase from dealers. You can get the real stuff from good vendors, like Pelican, and others at great prices (in the 928 world, we have exceptional vendors, including 928RUs, Roger Tyson, who has also supplied me with Boxster parts).

[whitecliffs]

Originally Posted by jimk04

Today I had a look at the lifters I have here out of a 99/2000 3.4.

Marked up INA 577.16. When I google the 577.9 mentioned in a previous post, I find nothing, but the 577.16 does come up.

I watched those you tube videos, very interesting to the point today I dismantled a few, and they would all seem serviceable.

One word of warning I would heed if rebuiling lifters, in one video the guy uses a magnet to keep holdof all the small parts....DONT DO THIS....the spring and ball for the check valve are SO small that if they become magnetized, I would imagine would effect their operation.

The other video, the guy says not to open up the relief valve element, but to me this step is very necessary to successfully renovate a stuck lifter, as you need to clean this out if it's gunged up with old oil.

I also purchased a BGA lifter today so I will have a good compare tomorrow against the INA.

Also got my shop to speak to Febi Bilstein about the ones they list, hoping they would be INA, but the technical line said that they had them made for themselves....?

Hi Jim, its steve from boxa aka Marseille, did the same as you over the weekend with some of the spare lifters i have after seeing that video, took a hell of a pull to get one of them apart both looked ok but wouldn't fancy reusing them after the force needed to pull them apart, i'm sticking with my old set which were running quiet before i removed them

[jimk04]

Hey Steve, yes I thought this was your thread. It has dug up some interesting info.

I would be happy to reuse them after taking them to bits, but I understand the call you make, like Jake says, costly if it all goes wrong

Must get on with my 3.4 build!

[jimk04]

tappet crown observations, no objective measurements, I wouldnt have the means, but you can SEE a slight difference.

BGA



INA (admittedly with 50k miles on) definitely 'flatter'. I dont think there is any discernable wear on here, as the mark from the valve is very central, doesnt contact wide enough to have flattened out a crown.

[Gelbster]

Tappet crown- thank you for sharing the observations.
What significance does this have for the jammed-up-in-the-bucket tappet problem?
Does the crown(offset slightly?) cause the tappet to rotate rotate ? And does a little rotation prevent jamming?
Or does jamming occur if there is almost total leak-down of oil from the tappet when the car sits for a long time ? Then when you eventually restart ,the tappet has no hydraulic 'cushion' ,so it gets hammered up into the bucket ?
All WAG but it would be good to understand this issue.

[Smallblock454]

Hi,

did some more research. INA produces hydraulic barrel tappets.
INA Deutschland | Branchen & Anwendungen | Standard Ventiltrieb

Porsche part number: 996 105 041 50.

There are 2 different parts available.
INA part number 265010 Ventilstößel (8 per package, 24 needed)
INA part number 420 0049 10 Ventilstößel (8 per package, 24 needed)

Please take a look in the INA parts online catalogue. Use navigation to switch between different engine types.

Example link: 986, 3.2, 252 HP
Schaeffler Automotive Aftermarket
Schaeffler Automotive Aftermarket

And i have to correct myself. INA produces the parts. Febi Bilstein distributes the INA hydraulic barrel tappets. See: Hydraulic cam followers

I recommend to buy from a local parts dealer, not from ebay.

[Gelbster]

Markus,
Great research as usual.
According to Auto Atlanta Porsche the Porsche part number was updated to
99610504172.
Using the 99610504172 in your excellent INA reference you provide this updated Porsche # is INA 268902 Ventilstößel or 420 0104 10 Ventilstößel
This crosses over to BGLA #HL6330 on Rock auto. So many 'translations' bothers me......
Here is a previous attempt to understand this opaque issue:
Lifter replacement/upgrade/fix - Rennlist Discussion Forums

[Smallblock454]

Hi Gelbster,

thanks for the 99610504172 hint.

Did a little more research. The 420 0049 10 is the INA part number, whereas the 265010 the Ruville part number is. Ruville is a after market sub brand of the Schäffler Group / INA. Ruville: Your System Specialist für Engine & Chassis.

Porsche somtines changes part numbers without changing, or improving the part itself. This is caused by the ERP system.

So in short 420 0049 10 is the INA OEM part for all 986 engines.




About price difference. It is quite normal that Porsche charges enormous spreads. In general it's hard to get OEM parts, because Porsche has contracts with suppliers. For example you'll never get after market SHW brake rotors.

Regards
Markus

[Smallblock454]

I'm not convinced about that, linderpat.

I bought a some VW parts that fit exactly for my Boxster. They were about 1/4 of the price Porsche wanted to charge from me. And they are 100% identical.

Concerning the hydraulic lifters. I'm pretty shure the INAs are OEM. Hydraulic cam followers

There are not so much companies that produce OEM hydraulic lifters in the world.

And yes, there are parts you can't get after market, because of contracts with suppliers. Learned that when looking for OEM brake rotors. In this case the OEM supplier was SHW AG - Home

But i found a small manufacturer that does them in OEM quality and sold me some directly. They look 110% the same and the quality is really like OEM. Could also take a look at production. So no "china relabeling". ,) And gues what - some guys at ebay sell these too. So i don't believe that the poeple you've listet can get OEM parts from suppliers if there are contracts form Porsche with the the supplier. And you can believe me that Porsche is very meticulous and restrict concerning contracts.

Regards from germany
Markus

[linderpat]

Originally Posted by Smallblock454

I'm not convinced about that, linderpat.

I bought a some VW parts that fit exactly for my Boxster. They were about 1/4 of the price Porsche wanted to charge from me. And they are 100% identical.

Markus - did you read my whole post?

[Jake Raby]

Part numbers and catalogs aside, break out precision measuring devices and if you are proficient with them, you'll find the differences.

Hopefully BEFORE they find you.

The parts company that we do a ton of 3rd part development for is German owned, they are Tier 1 with INA. My information is direct because of this.

[Smallblock454]

Jake, i'm absolutey with you.

If you don't find a supplier part number on the part, besides that it's also recommended not only to measure parts but to check weight.

So best way is to order one hydraulic lifter and compare it exactly.

I think that people who rebuilt a Porsche Boxster engine should be able to rate risks and also should know the difference between OEM parts, parts from OEM suppliers, after market parts and chinese bling bling plagiarism.

@ linderpat: yes i did. Maybe i didn't get it 100% because english is not my first language. Sometimes it's hard for me to understand exactly how things were meant. Sorry for that, but i allways try hard to get better.

Regards
Markus

[Gelbster]

Smallblock,
Thanks for all your research on this subject. You have contributed more factual info than was available to we diy owners before this thread was started.
Realistically , how are we going to test the Rockwell hardness of a tappet crown? We have to just hope.
How are we going to measure/compare/understand the radius and concentricity of the crown of a tappet? I have all the old engineers measuring equipment ,but that is a daunting task to perform accurately.
I agree with your short cut of relying on OEM part numbers . And BYprodrivers helpful comments are always reliable. One of us just has to try a specific part number and share the results. The cryptic "I know the secret but I am not sharing it" comments are not helpful. I am glad Markus took the time to share his research and help those who follow.Thank you.

[Smallblock454]

@ Gelbster: i've sent you a pm.