How many miles are on your IMS Retrofit?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by autodoctor911

I guess that ws the Info I was looking for. If it was just a matter of Porsche cutting costs, then this fix should suffice. 70 cars is a pretty good number of testers out there, but not enough to be a guarantee it won't eventually happen. I wish we could get some input from someone inside Porsche, maybe in the racing development area on this.

Good luck. All I have interfaced with were sworn to secrecy and would mention nothing.

If anyone is looking for a false sense of security that the IMSR will create a bulletproof engine, you won't get it with me. The IMS just happens to be ONE OF the 21 modes of failure that we have documented, it is also one of the only ones that can be applied with the engine together and in the car, lots of others cannot.. Thats thanks to a lot of effort related to the development of the procedure that was not mainstream until March of 2009! Prior to that what we are doing now was considered "impossible" and it is still considered that way by Porsche.

A few months ago a board member here suffered an IMS failure while waiting for his slot on my schedule for the procedure.

This has happened to a couple of other people that have reservations due to the time in service that the bearings have and the procedure. To be quite frank, anyone who doubts the procedure should not do it at all, if you are that negative, stubborn and reserved then just await your destiny and hope for the best, whatever that may be. Don't even call me and waste the time of both of us.

We will not complete a process for a client if they do not trust our technology, knowledge and enthusiasm 100%. Any doubt at all is too much. I also do not make promises or give people false hope that the bearing will be the ultimate fix for everything related to the engine. Some people think this is the case, because they don't understand mechanical things that will always wear out, will always break and will never be predictable.

As we write our book on the M96 engine and its assembly we have found all sorts of conflicting sales numbers and dates, my co-author Dr. Smith has been researching that for quite some time.

The numbers that you'll never find are related to how many of those vehicles sold required serious mechanical intervention both while under warranty and out of warranty.

If you want to do the IMSR then we want to help you. If you don't believe in it, just do your own thing and enjoy your Porsche, but if you do become a statistic I wouldn't bother admitting that you were one of the "chosen few".

When its time, its time... Heart transplants don't make Humans immortal, and IMS retrofits don't make engines immortal-

The opposition can complain all they want about the procedure, because just the fact that the IMSR is an OPTION with the engine installed into the car is a miracle. Before the procedure was made public if your IMS bearing STARTED to fail you REQUIRED a new engine, there was no option.

After I saved just ONE engine with the procedure I had already been successful. We began ONLY doing "salvation work" with the retrofit, it was the DEMAND from the following that made the preventive procedure go viral.

[andyv94]

IF I am going to purchase the Boxster that I am looking at (a 2003 tt, 45K miles "S") do I purchase the extended warranty or do I pay for the retro for the IMS??

Ideally I would do both, but economics does now allow me to do so................any reputable warranty company that will cover the failure if it happens?? are there any out there??

[autodoctor911]

I am quite in agreement that it is an amazingly gracious means to fix a bearing that is known to be going out. salvation indeed. but what is the actual risk. everone here seems to talk like it is inevitable, but ehat are the actual percentages. one source that would definitely have this kind of info is the extended warranty company. they track repair costs on various vehicles.

[Cloudsurfer]

Originally Posted by autodoctor911

I am quite in agreement that it is an amazingly gracious means to fix a bearing that is known to be going out. salvation indeed. but what is the actual risk. everone here seems to talk like it is inevitable, but ehat are the actual percentages. one source that would definitely have this kind of info is the extended warranty company. they track repair costs on various vehicles.

The odds are clearly in your favor for the bearing NOT failing (do the math on the numbers of 98X and 99X cars sold, and the number of IMS failures- it's likely under 1%), but considering that the gamble has the potential to create a need for a motor swap, upgrading the bearing is cheap insurance.

If you study this forum and/or Renntech, you'll find several stories of people who paid for extended warranties and then got denied coverage for a new motor when the IMS failed, so I would hardly consider the warranty "insurance."

[autodoctor911]

how could a warranty not cover engine failure due to an internal bearing?

[jhandy]

speaking from experience.....they will blame it on oil change interval ( too soon or too long), have you ever redlined the motor, one missing reciept for a oil change, not using the recommended oil, but for me after working through all of these issues....

was the fact they could not put a price on the bearing replacement proceedure because the bearing is not for sale from porsche and the proceedure is not listed in the cost/hour book they use.

after a 5 month delay, they finally paid to have my bearing replaced to save the motor. At one point they even tried to give me a used pull motor instead of paying for the retrofit.

[Frank M]

Originally Posted by autodoctor911

how could a warranty not cover engine failure due to an internal bearing?

in addition to the afore mentioned reasons,
was there a noise or other symptoms that were ignored until complete failure
any prior leaks that could suggest low oil level
is it wear and not a sudden catastrophe as many warranties do not cover wear

any song can be sung by an extended warranty compnay by using what is printed in their contract.

persistent communication with them over a declined repair can sometimes net an approval.

unfortunately most people just roll over.

[autodoctor911]

from my experience the good warranty companies,i.e. ones that have been in business 10 years ore more, espepecially the ones that are attatched to major auto manufacturers e.g. G.M.P.P., Ford E.S.P., etc. would not pull such a thing. Now the warranties they sell you over the phone when you already have a car are probably bogus. the warranties from used car lots not associated with a major new car dealership may or may not have a good history. Allways checkout a warranty company before purchasing a warranty.

[jhandy]

Frank M, instead of reading what is included, read what is excluded. Like I said, if you have ever red lined your motor, It is in the ECU. That one redline can be used to exclude you. Miss one scheduled oil change by more than 500 miles? Do you have every reciept for oil changes?
Have you done regularly scheduled matinance within 500 miles of the set number?

It is not the question if the bearing is covered or not......they will use every loophole they can.

I fought with them for 5 months, the cost was not enought to get a lawyer, but just enough to fight. I did not roll over, but after a while the mechanic that HAD TO TEAR DOWN the motor down to prove or disprove wants to get paid and the car out of the shop.

Thats another catch, Before they pay, they ask that the motor be torn down for inspection, If they end up not covering something, then they do not pay for the labor to tear it down or put it back.

That alone kind of gets you under thier thumb to accept what they pay.


The company I had was warrenty direct. It has been around for 30 years. They still screwed me. My claim for roughly 9,000 was worn down to around 5,000 and I was out of a car for 5 months.

[Frank M]

Having some experience with warranty companies as I have been doing independent mechanical inspections for over 40 companies, 12 years now.
My advice is to get a reputable company as mentioned in a previous post.

For service go to the selling dealer that sold you the warranty as they have some pull due to their warranty sales. (notice I didn't say you bought it online. from a solicitor or through the mail)

do your maintenance right to the tee, do not modify your vehicle or use questionable products, use what is recommended by the manufacturer only.

[JFP in PA]

As someone that runs a shop, let me give you another perspective on these warranties:

1. Many aftermarket insurers try to act like these repairs are medical insurance, they try tell the shop what you can expect to be paid, how long it should take, and even where to buy parts. Not in my shop…….

2. They want you to disassemble the engine, then wait for their “inspector” to show up, which takes anywhere from a couple of days to weeks. Shops typically have limited space, particularly inside. No owner wants his car sitting outside for weeks, particularly with the engine partially disassembled.

3. As others have noted, many of these companies try to weasel out of paying a claim for reasons totally unconnected to the problem. ECU/DME data, “competition tires”, “extensive modification” (aftermarket exhaust system), etc., etc….. Anything to keep from paying out…….

4. “Partial settlements” where they will pay for only part of the job, or only cover the parts. I actually had one tell me that they would only cover the time to swap out the bearing, not the labor to get at it. Right……..

5. The warranty companies often use poorly trained or totally incompetent personnel to review the claims. Often they know little, if anything, about the make or model involved, much less what is required to make the repair. Yet they are the individuals that determine if the claim will be paid and at what rate.

6. After market warranty companies are amongst the slowest payers out there, often trying to string the shop out for months on a claim, and sometimes go out of business while you are waiting, leaving the shop to file a legal claim with little to no chance of getting paid.

Like many other shops, we no longer deal with any warranty company, period. If the owner wants to file a claim, that fine by me, but the repair is cash, check or credit card only………

[jhandy]

Jeff is correct. These people are evil. I bought the coverage the day I bought the car new. I used it once for a wheel bearing, and then it sat un-used for years.
My milage was fast approaching 75,000 which was the cut off. So I sent it to the shop and asked that they inspect everything and replace anything that was broken or worn.

The only thng that saved me was that they pissed off Jake and he fought tooth and nail to get stuff covered. (just out of principle I think)

However I think that experience soured him on warrenty companies. In the end I had ~5000K of work paid for and a car that drives like new.

At one point they even tried to say that I changed my oil too frequently as the manual for the car said every 10K.

Buy the coverage from the dealer, it will cost double but I dont think that they would try to screw you as quickly.

[autodoctor911]

I have dealt with many warranty companies at dealerships and independent garages, and the only time they have even asked for maintenance records is when there is evidence of neglect such as excessive sludge. even then though, after some bickering the repairs were covered even if no real records could be produced. Of course If you bought the warranty somewhere other than from the dealer that sold you the car, you probably did get screwed right from the start no matter how many years they claim to have been in business. how can you know what business they've been in, unless you check them out. the hard part has been getting them to pay enough to cover quality parts and a decent labor amount to make good money recently as they have tried to cut costs by using used parts. not nearly as bad as with regular insurance coverage, especially state farm recently. yeah some of the inspectors don't know much, but that can be an advantage too. I still work with them, and have not had a problem getting paid once the approval is made.

[autodoctor911]

The best extended warranty plan that I have ever dealt with has been from Nissan, so if you can, find a porsche for sale at a Nissan used car lot, or even just go to a Nissan used car salesman and have him findyou one that you like at another dealer or at an auction. Dealers trade the cars with each other at wholesale so he can sell it to you for the same price you would pay wherever it was. then you would be able to purchase a kick ass warranty. I've worked on a mercedes with a Nissan warranty and they payed the dealer $2500 in repairs for fixing lifters, and maybe some oil leaks, which I know was probably BS. It probably just needed the plastic oil crossover tubes. then they misdiagnosed the ac and put a FEC(front electronic module) in it for $1100. The ac still wasn't working when he brought it to me. I checked it out, determined that the codes stored in the ac control unit were keeping the FEC from activating the compressor. the codes were caused by the fact that the compressor did not funtion when activated. I just had to think for myself and go outside th pinpint test boxes mercedes publishes and generate my own signal to the compressor to determine that it was the cause. I called the Nissan warranty and they approved a $1000 compressor job without even sending an inspector.

[autodoctor911]

one way to tell a crappy warranty is how they pay for the repair. any good warranty is going to give a one time credit card # with the approval or right after the repair, so patment is recieved before the vehicle is picked up. If a company tries to pay any other way they are being shady and probably not going to pay at all.

[autodoctor911]

I do see one giant loophole on the ims failure in some warranties:
"internally lubricated parts"
Because Porsche had the bright(dumb) idea of using a sealed bearing this would possibly leave it open to someone's interpretation who looks at the part as being not internally lubricated, which would be correct, but I doubt anyone at these warranty companies has figured that out yet.

[Frank M]

Originally Posted by autodoctor911

I do see one giant loophole on the ims failure in some warranties:
"internally lubricated parts"
Because Porsche had the bright(dumb) idea of using a sealed bearing this would possibly leave it open to someone's interpretation who looks at the part as being not internally lubricated, which would be correct, but I doubt anyone at these warranty companies has figured that out yet.

maybe not but an inspector should.

BTW when I had my shop I did not do any warranty work for customers. I would tell them, we will fix it and give you a detailed bill for the warranty company.
Most customers said "forget it, just fix it" and pay me when completed.

[andyv94]

Thank you all for your replies. The company where I am buying my car in Austin is not a big dealership (i.e Porsche, etc....) it is from a used car company that sell high end imports for the most part. I never trust these types of dealerships to be honest.........so I will have a pre-purchase inspection done to the car prior to me buying the car. If everything checks out I will buy the car, if there are too many red flags I will walk away.

So I think what I will do if I buy the car is to forgo the extended warranty and take the car to an Austin Porsche mechanic to do the retrofit for the IMS............

Does that sound like good logic to you folks??

[gschotland]

Jake did IMS bearing (and clutch, flyweel, and RMS) on my daily driver '02S in Oct. '09 at 70k. He showed me that the factory bearing was in the early stages of failure, with some race looseness and evidence of oil leaking by. He believed the bearing, best case, would have lasted another 20k miles, which was well short of my projected ownership horizon. This reinforced my already strong feeling that this was money well spent - FOR ME.

Even if the bearing had been perfect, I'd still have felt that having this procedure done - particular by Flat6 - was well worth it. I'm not an overly conservative, "nervous Nellie" type who spends his life obsessing about everything bad that could happen. On the contrary, as a real estate developer I'm inherently a risk taker, but I know value and take calculated risks. At about ~$1500 over what a clutch job alone here in NJ would have cost me, having Jake do the IMSR was solid value.

Sure, I could have gotten it done closer to home, probably for around the same price, saving myself a 5 day vacation to GA, but experience has a lot value in my book. The best guy did my car, the possibility of an "oops!" was minimized, and I got a loaner Box to tour the Antebellum Trail while the job was being done.

I'm now at 78k miles and enjoying my car more than ever partially because the retrofit gave me piece of mind.

It just amazes me that hundreds of people on this site with plenty of money in their cars won't think twice about blowing a couple thousand on a fancy stereo will in the next breath choke about spending less than that on an IMSR, or will instead spend a few thousand on a warranty of dubious value.

As they say, "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

Gary
FSI-0151

[andyv94]

That is probably what i am going to end up doing, except that I will have my retrofit done either in Houston or Austin..............so if anybody knows of a shop in either city (or Dallas) that has done the retrofit.........by all means, let me know!!

Thank you