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Old 07-06-2010, 12:03 PM   #1
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LN 3.2 to 3.6

hello - has anyone doe the LN Engineering 3.2 to 3.6 bore increase without any other revisions to the engine? that is, Jake Raby also does valves, cams, ecu, oil plugs, etc., as part of his conversion - is this required, or can you just increase the bore and let the ecu compensate as per the LN website? i've heard headers are a real benefit, but are any other intake mods required (injectors, etc.)? i realise that any mods done in conjunction with the bore increase will increase hp/torque, but are any NECESSARY to accompany the bore increase? or, are do any of them provide an ok 'hp:$' ratio? i ask as a Raby stage i engine is over $15k, but the LN bore is only $4k. i'm sure that that additional work Jake does increases hp and longevity, but i'm trying to get a feel for where the law of diminishing returns kicks in (probably when i first bought the car ...).

thanks.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:07 PM   #2
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FYI- The work LN does for 4K is machine work and plating for their new liners as well as a set of JE forged pistons. This is ONE PROCESS of the engine enhancement, it is not a complete engine or does not include any of the other required components.

My price is for a 100% completely reconstructed engine that uses a culmination of my technology with the LN upgrades and expert assembly followed by both engine and chassis dyno evaluations. It also includes FREE removal and reinstallation of the engine into your Porsche.

To disassemble the engine to ONLY do the LN upgrade to 3.6 liters the assembly labor is the same as what we'd charge for the complete engine, as EVERY component MUST be removed. If you attempted to only do this one enhancement you'd still spend 3K in required parts and the same 5K on assembly, maybe even more if done by a less than competent (slow) M96 engine assembler.

In short, the enhancement to the LN Nickies cylinders is one aspect of my engine, there are 22 more that you haven't considered.. Thats why the prices are north of 15K. We leave no stone unturned, we assume nothing, we risk nothing.

If an engine sees a bore change without coefficient optimization of the related internal components the result is an inefficient combination that has a narrow powerband, is hard to tune, runs hotter and gets lousy MPG. My most recent stage ! 3.6 based from a 3.2 has attained upward of 32 MPG even with spirited driving! Thats 7 MPG more than the same car with the base 3.2 made when it produced 40 less HP in stock form. This insane fuel economy and power is a direct illustration of the efficiency of my engine design.

that engine is also running with a STOCK ECU flash, has STOCK 3.2 exhaust and a STOCK 3.2 intake system. It has all the benefits of a bone stock engine, but hauls ass, sounds great and has amazed its driver enough to sell his BMW M3.. Thats a Stage I engine, its changes and alterations are required to optimize the bore enhancement.
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Last edited by Jake Raby; 07-06-2010 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:26 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Raby
FYI- The work LN does for 4K is machine work and plating for their new liners as well as a set of JE forged pistons. This is ONE PROCESS of the engine enhancement, it is not a complete engine or does not include any of the other required components.

My price is for a 100% completely reconstructed engine that uses a culmination of my technology with the LN upgrades and expert assembly followed by both engine and chassis dyno evaluations. It also includes FREE removal and reinstallation of the engine into your Porsche.

To disassemble the engine to ONLY do the LN upgrade to 3.6 liters the assembly labor is the same as what we'd charge for the complete engine, as EVERY component MUST be removed. If you attempted to only do this one enhancement you'd still spend 3K in required parts and the same 5K on assembly, maybe even more if done by a less than competent (slow) M96 engine assembler.

In short, the enhancement to the LN Nickies cylinders is one aspect of my engine, there are 22 more that you haven't considered.. Thats why the prices are north of 15K. We leave no stone unturned, we assume nothing, we risk nothing.

If an engine sees a bore change without coefficient optimization of the related internal components the result is an inefficient combination that has a narrow powerband, is hard to tune, runs hotter and gets lousy MPG. My most recent stage ! 3.6 based from a 3.2 has attained upward of 32 MPG even with spirited driving! Thats 7 MPG more than the same car with the base 3.2 made when it produced 40 less HP in stock form. This insane fuel economy and power is a direct illustration of the efficiency of my engine design.

that engine is also running with a STOCK ECU flash, has STOCK 3.2 exhaust and a STOCK 3.2 intake system. It has all the benefits of a bone stock engine, but hauls ass, sounds great and has amazed its driver enough to sell his BMW M3.. Thats a Stage I engine, its changes and alterations are required to optimize the bore enhancement.
Which would be..
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:52 PM   #4
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thanks jake. my $4k to $15k comparison wasn't fair, as one price doesn't include labour and one (yours) does. as well, i fully realise that your engines also have reliabilty modications (ims, low temp tstat, billet chain tensioner, etc.) that increase overall cost.

good to hear that no fuel delivery/air intake revisions are required.

am i correct in assuming that the drawbacks to a 'bore only' change that you list (heat, poor mpg, narrow powerband) are all related to valve/cam operation? if so, then can i consider a valve job and cam grind necessary mods to accompany a bore change?

thanks jake, and i think we are all loooking forward to seeing your 3.2L mods up on your webpage (as well as your UDP!). TRK.
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:37 AM   #5
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Guys,

Every time I am ready to post infinite details about what differentiates our engines from others and exactly what we do another reason pops up that I shouldn't.. There are lots of people that jumped on the "bandwagon" with M96 engine repair and production after we did. These people simply cannot figure out how we are being effective, when they can't even build a stock engine without it failing.

The biggest difference is they are creating an engine thats designed to sell, not really to work.. They have whittled prices and processes to the point of being bare minimum and they basically lack the experience or resources to do anything more.

These people read my site and these forums just as much as the individual enthusiasts do, trying to see just what makes the engine tick. Due to this I have to be reserved with some information or even some problem areas or processes to keep them from becoming more educated and using that information against me.. I guess they'll all buy a copy of my book and maybe then they'll have a chance!!

Cartel, If you want an idea of the 22 areas that I was referencing, just send me an email and we'll begin some dialogue.

Lets go over The Radium King's last post:

Quote:
thanks jake. my $4k to $15k comparison wasn't fair, as one price doesn't include labour and one (yours) does.
It also doesn't include cylinder head rebuilding, crankshaft evaluations, or even a gasket set for reassembly. The simplest of parts for this engine add up extremely quickly and your observation covered none of them.. My price covers 100% of them and installation, and both engine and chassis dyno evaluations, and **i** personally test drive the car for 3-500 miles before its shipped to you.. We do the first oil service, all break in related services and when the car returns you have no action required and no break n period. Drive it as hard as you want right off the delivery truck.

Consider these things when you consider initial cost and understand that some of them are absolutely priceless..

Quote:
as well, i fully realise that your engines also have reliabilty modications (ims, low temp tstat, billet chain tensioner, etc.) that increase overall cost.
Yes, we apply ALL of the enhancements currently available to every engine, the list of options is short.

Quote:
good to hear that no fuel delivery/air intake revisions are required.
I specifically designed the Stage 1 performance engine to be this way.. Above this stage all of that changes.

Quote:
am i correct in assuming that the drawbacks to a 'bore only' change that you list (heat, poor mpg, narrow powerband) are all related to valve/cam operation? if so, then can i consider a valve job and cam grind necessary mods to accompany a bore change?
No, cylinder head alterations are also required and its not so much changing the camshafts that matters as much as simply altering the timing of existing cams in some situations and base engines.

Quote:
thanks jake, and i think we are all loooking forward to seeing your 3.2L mods up on your webpage (as well as your UDP!).
The site will probably stay as is for a while.. we are staying swamped with the site being as vague as it is currently and seriously don't want to educate our competitors or future competitors.. They have to pay the price of blood, sweat and dollars just like we have to get this far, else its not really life.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:21 PM   #6
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Gentlemen,

Please just do what Jake says and keep quiet. Send the car, pay the money, and be happy. You will not be dissapointed. I speak from experience. End of story.

I run a 1999 996 with a Flat 6 Innovations massaged 3.8 conversion. It will pass anything short of a cup car or tube frame 911 be it a 997S, 996, Boxter S, Cayman S, Cayman Turbo, 951, 930 been there done that at BIR on the main straight.

I'll be at Road America on the 11th and 12th, stop on by and check it out, car #996.

Lon
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltusler
Gentlemen,

Please just do what Jake says and keep quiet. Send the car, pay the money, and be happy. You will not be dissapointed. I speak from experience. End of story.

I run a 1999 996 with a Flat 6 Innovations massaged 3.8 conversion. It will pass anything short of a cup car or tube frame 911 be it a 997S, 996, Boxter S, Cayman S, Cayman Turbo, 951, 930 been there done that at BIR on the main straight.

I'll be at Road America on the 11th and 12th, stop on by and check it out, car #996.

Lon
Damn, thanks Lon..
And it comes from a man that wrote the check for one :-)
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US Patent 8,992,089 &
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:41 PM   #8
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I've posted this before, BUT...

Jake's rep goes back forever in the Type IV VW/914 world. Before the M96 appeared Jake was making VeeDubs run like lions.

Trust him. First guy to say M96 could be rebuilt when Porsche would not.

'Nuf sed.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:49 PM   #9
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I don't discredit him. It's just that there are not that many people can afford to sink that kind of money into their car.

Seems like when people get hit with IMS, they either find a used engine or sell the car for scrap instead of sending it to Jake.
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
I don't discredit him.
I didn't think that he did. I am a bit accustomed to doubt so it doesn't bother me.. When your primary focus is developing an engine platform with so many inherent issues doubt is just part of the the execution of my day..

Quote:
It's just that there are not that many people can afford to sink that kind of money into their car.
Not true. Those who appreciate what a Porsche is and those who have extensive Porsche backgrounds understand what we have created and see the value that it offers. If the kind of following didn't exist for what we create, my business would have sank instead of growing during this economic downturn.

Quote:
Seems like when people get hit with IMS, they either find a used engine or sell the car for scrap instead of sending it to Jake.
Thats not who knocks on our door. The wiser of the group applies the IMSR and avoids the entire experience related to that failure. People have 4 choices when they have an engine failure of any mode:

1- Buy a used engine
2- Buy a new crate engine from Porsche
3-Buy a re-man engine from a producer of high volumes, mostly comprised of used parts with no upgrades
4- Buy my FSI upgraded engine.

Of those mine is the only one with all the updates applied in STANDARD form and is the only of those that can be created for an application specific arrangement. The mildest engine that I produce makes 30HP more than it's OE counterpart in stock, non upgraded form. Pay for 30 real HP and see what that costs, pay for 35-50 more lb/ft of torque and see how much your wallets lightens... The byproduct of added efficiency and better parts has become performance, we make more power even if we aren't trying to!

If 1/2 of 1% of all Boxster Owners in this country buys an engine from me, thats still more volume than we'd ever be able to meet.. Our goal isn't volume, its development and creating resource materials and classroom experiences to help the DIY and INDY shop efforts worldwide. My business is a development company that just happens to also produce low volumes of high quality engines while supporting others in their quest of "understanding the M96 engine" (which just happens to be the title of my book thats being written as we speak)

And remember, a whole lot of our purchasers are waiting in the wings to buy their dream Porsche with a scattered engine dirt cheap on ebay and etc.. These people buy the car and spend DOUBLE to TRIPLE what they pay for it on my engine and some upgrades to create a really sweet and fast DE or street car. To these people your loss is their gain and you can bet they'll have more fun with your car, than you ever did.. I have had cars shipped to me for engines that the purchaser never even saw until our work was done and delivered to their doorstep...

In the old days the vast majority of those who could afford to buy a Porsche could also afford to maintain and repair it.. Today thats not the case in all too many instances.
"Porsche" and "Expense" both have 7 letters and share more in common than just that....
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:29 PM   #11
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sorry for any perceived accusations, efforts to discredit, questions of trust or whatnot in my initial post. that was not my intent. my intent was to confirm what changes are neccessary to accompany a bore increase. the LN site says nothing else is required, but also partners with Raby who makes additional modifications. while i acknowleged the value of these additional modifications, i was trying to differentiate nice vs neccessary. i can afford neccessary, i can't afford nice. besides, this is a 986 BOXSTER board for cars that sell for $10k; i don't need definitions of 'expense' or free advice to just put up $20k and shut up; if money is truly of no object to some of the posters here then i suggest they start walking the walk, drive something made after 2004 and take the attitude to a 9x7 board.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:46 PM   #12
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I was merely stating that cost comes with the territory.

I don't think that your perception of whats stated on the LN site regarding their 3.6 upgrade was correct when it said nothing else was required.. Thats because what IS required is complete and total engine disassembly and reassembly. They were basically stating that crazy mods like huge heads, wild cams, ECU flashes and 5K exhausts are not mandatory.

Yet again, you compared one process to a complete engine assembly cost wise, which is like comparing your Porsche to a Suzuki Samurai..

Nothing wrong with that, you didn't know..
Just don't assume that the approach I have created isn't viable or being carried out or that what I stated was snooty. The fact is a lot of guys that have GT3s and other Porsches are making Boxsters into track cars because they simply don't care if they run the car off the track and smash it, they can buy another tub for 3K, swap my engine into it and go. They can't do that with their GT3 or Turbo.

In many ways the Boxster platform offers something that only the Cayman can come close to comparing to, give the car the right power and in the right hands the car can't be touched. Thats worth it to enough people.
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:46 AM   #13
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this is a 986 BOXSTER board for cars that sell for $10k

And for ones that sell for more or less than that...some much much more.

Yes, it is true that some people buy older Boxsters at very low prices and can't afford to maintain them if something major happens. Just as it is true that a major accident will total a Boxster in the eyes of the insurance company where a Honda might be viewed as repairable.

There are people who have rebuilt their engines themselves, those who had someone else do it, those who went the improved engine route, some who bought the Porsche crate engine and some who just parted out the car or parked it in their barn.

It takes all kinds of people. And there isn't only one way to approach the problem of a blown engine because not everyone has the means or the needs of someone else. I'm certainly not going to rebuild the engine myself...just as when I had Cancer treatment I looked for a person with a documented track record of successes...I'd want someone with similar successes. I've seen too many scams (I have a meeting with the DA about a $320k embezzlement this afternoon).

Jake provides one way to repair/prevent and shares much of what he learns. We benefit.

But just as not everyone can afford the '09 Boxster they might want (my choices run $94k) or would spend that if they could, many have to seek a different solution to their repair/prevention needs. Not everyone can afford the best.
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Old 07-08-2010, 06:30 AM   #14
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Mike,
Thats an excellent post.

While not everyone can afford what we're doing in turn key form one of the goals I have is to provide component assemblies that include the technology and the resource material for the DIY efforts to support engine assembly.

This engine is no longer difficult for us to assemble with the current tools and assembly procedures and that makes it easier to convey to the end user in a way that breeds success. One thing is for sure, mass production of M96 engines isn't my overall goal.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:53 AM   #15
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with patience and some valium i intend to put my engineering degree to practical use and learn how to assemble/disassemble my own engine. in a previous post i acknowledged that the LN cost didn't include labour but the Raby work did. I consciously chose not to value my own time in this comparison. in the roughness of my initial estimates i left out 'shop parts' like rings, etc.

i have a 3.2 that is starting to burn oil. i also have access to an inexpensive 3.4 with d-chiunk. i am in the early stages of analysis of my options, and i think that both should be fixable with new liners. with the new liners comes opportuninity for bore increase. while i can assemble/disassemble, i would have to outsource any machine work. hence my efforts to confirm the necessity of head reworking, etc., to accompany any bore increase.

again, not to discredit Jake in any manner (i have made every effort to value his work and input in this thread and continue to do so) but i am trying to separate unessential modifications from essential modifications. your definition of this will differ from mine. some hit on 19, some don't. some change ims bearings, some don't.

before i do things i gather information - lots of information. it is part of the process that i quite enjoy. it is necessitated by my remote location and need to ensure value for money. the internet is often my first stop, so that i can be informed when i take the next step and start working with vendors, etc. most of the conversation in this thread should have happened on the phone with Jake or whomever, but i was actually looking for input from someone who had increased bore without ancilliary mods so as to form a baseline.

if any value has come from this conversation, it is the acknowledgement that not everyone on this 986 board wants to (or can) put big $ into their car. everyone has different values and needs and will phrase their input accordingly. whatever; when it comes to opinion you get what you pay for on the internet. vendors should carefully analyse how they address this disparate group, however, lest they alienate a growing percentage of their target market.

my $.02; trk done with this thread.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:51 AM   #16
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I have developed a program to assist those who want to do, what you are discussing now.. Its an engine kit program of sorts that bridges the gaps that individuals experience when working with this engine.. that includes tools, component lists (or supplied components) as well as upgrades.

At least 1800.00 worth of special tools are REQUIRED to assemble this engine, there is no way around these. Did you know this?

Also, you will find some parts that are near impossible to attain that are simple parts that are required. Its a challenge even for shops to know what components are safe for reuse within these engines.

To answer your question you can disassemble the entire engine, upgrade the liners and change only the pistons and rings and do nothing else, but doing so is still costly just in consumables.

I have two individuals and 5 shops working with me on engines that are being built in kit form right now.
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US Patent 8,992,089 &
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Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Radium King
with patience and some valium i intend to put my engineering degree to practical use and learn how to assemble/disassemble my own engine. in a previous post i acknowledged that the LN cost didn't include labour but the Raby work did. I consciously chose not to value my own time in this comparison. in the roughness of my initial estimates i left out 'shop parts' like rings, etc.

i have a 3.2 that is starting to burn oil. i also have access to an inexpensive 3.4 with d-chiunk. i am in the early stages of analysis of my options, and i think that both should be fixable with new liners. with the new liners comes opportuninity for bore increase. while i can assemble/disassemble, i would have to outsource any machine work. hence my efforts to confirm the necessity of head reworking, etc., to accompany any bore increase.

again, not to discredit Jake in any manner (i have made every effort to value his work and input in this thread and continue to do so) but i am trying to separate unessential modifications from essential modifications. your definition of this will differ from mine. some hit on 19, some don't. some change ims bearings, some don't.

before i do things i gather information - lots of information. it is part of the process that i quite enjoy. it is necessitated by my remote location and need to ensure value for money. the internet is often my first stop, so that i can be informed when i take the next step and start working with vendors, etc. most of the conversation in this thread should have happened on the phone with Jake or whomever, but i was actually looking for input from someone who had increased bore without ancilliary mods so as to form a baseline.

if any value has come from this conversation, it is the acknowledgement that not everyone on this 986 board wants to (or can) put big $ into their car. everyone has different values and needs and will phrase their input accordingly. whatever; when it comes to opinion you get what you pay for on the internet. vendors should carefully analyse how they address this disparate group, however, lest they alienate a growing percentage of their target market.

my $.02; trk done with this thread.
Here is a refreshing take from a mechanic in England (named "Bazhart" on PCGB), who seems to have a knack for clear explanations when responding to a question regarding common failures:

"Sorry, I thought the weak spots or faults were quite well known now.

The most common failure in a Boxster or 996 at relatively low mileage (say 20 to 50 K) is a failed intermediate shaft bearing that seems to aflict all models.

The next most common in higher mileage 996's is a cracked liner. This should be more grequent in Cayman S and 997 models as the cylinder wall thickness is the same and the load higher - but they are newer and time will tell.

Then we get a mixture of broken chains, crankshaft bearings/shells, cracked cylinder heads (mainly 996's and a few Boxster S's).

All the above repeat quite often and form a list of typical failures we come to expect (can often therefore diagnose over the phone) and have done something about improving or repairing.

More rarely we have had odd things that have not repeated YET.

Some engine with the later variable valve lift system have had the canshaft lobe wear right through the tappet top face.

Sometimes - on all models - we have had core plugs coming out and a siezure of a piston on one side of the piston only - on the thrust face - sometimes a std 996 - more often a supercharged version - sometimes one with very large piston clearances because the combustion gasses pass the piston and burn the oil on the piston face where the rings no longer seal the now oval bore sufficiently.

It is this last fault that we have only seen once on s Boxster 2.5 or 2.7, a couple of times on a Boxster S, a few more on a 996, but increasingly more often with a 987, 997 3.6 and 997 3.8 - which is strange because they are newer than the other models and therefore generally have covered less miles.

Usually - if a piston seizes on the thrust face - it is a problem of thrust load on the cylinder face from the piston and a reduction in the ability of the oil film to support the piston resulting in it rubbing too hard on the cylinder lining. This is usually due to the oil film being too hot and the resulting reduction in support from the oil thinning with the heat.

To investigate if this explanation fits the engines we have seen we checked which side seizes - finding always the 456 side of the engine (or bank 2).

This side has a more tortuous route for the coolant to travel before entering the block, and the additional oil cooler to reduce flow slightly. Also - as the coolant enters from the bottom of both sides of the block (into both banks) the coolest coolant hits the bottom of the cylinders first and heats up as it passes accross the cylinders. However on bank 2 the thrust face is on the top and on bank one it is on the bottom - so the thrust face will be running hotter on bank 2 than bank 1.

This means that bank 2 will have the thinnest oil supporting the thrust face of the psiton.

Unusually - all the engines listed above split the amount of coolant that can pass into the cylinder block and the cylinder head so only about 1/10 goes into the block and 9/10 into the head and it mixes together again on its way back to the thermostat and radiator.

This makes the cylinders running hotter than the head and hotter than they would be if the coolant passage was like say the 944, 968 etc where all the coolant goes into the block first - which is therefore the coolest. Furthermore with such small coolant passages the coolant speed in the block will be reduced and the temperature rise higher and therefore noticeably higher on the top or thrust face on cylinder bank 2.

The models with variable valve lift create much higher torque at low revs (giving much better performance without revving the engine), however that increase in performance comes about because the piston is pushing harder on the cylinder wall at lower revs and probably more often as drivers enjoy the increased performance throughout the range.

We think there is a link here because all the engines with higher thrust on the hottest side are failing in this mode sooner than before - it makes sense to us anyway.

Always when weak spots occur in engines - they only ever afflict a small number - so the design can reasonably be called marginal or a weak spot. Consequently (for example) although most were OK - when a Rover K series loses coolant most garages assume correctly the head gasket has gone etc. Designers could always improve the design and erradicate the problem - if they had time and the intention - in the same way the we have provided reliable solutions to all the problems we have found.

However it is perfectly clear that many of the problems were not re-designed and have been with the engines for a very long time and so it is either because the engineers at Porsche found it impossible to identify the problems and rectify them or they could have but didnt't. I will leave it up to you to ponder on the likelyhood that if our minute business was instantly able to analyse and resolve the problems and find solutions - whether the Porsche engineers were capable of doing the same or better - or not!

Regardless of all that - we can only re-balance the cylinder temperature problem upon rebuilding the engine and so - my strong advice - to make sure you have a warranty you can trust - especially with variable valve lift engines.

We are testing a cooler termostat that will lower the overall temperature as a simple low cost preventative measure to protect engines and will report on this soon.

Baz "


Regards, Maurice.
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