Measurements of Lowered Boxsters

[fishyfishfish]

And just to make myself feel even worse for buying adjustable camber plates ($400) that might not be useful without adjustable coilovers and/or adjustable swaybar/perches, i did a google search and found these probably great -- though not "name brand" -- adjustable coilovers WITH camber plates online for around $1000. Although I'm new to the boxster world, unfortunately, I'm used to this kind of buyer regret(s) being a mac user my whole life and "loving" the feeling of getting a new computer delivered, turning it on, and finding the same computer online for a hundred bucks cheaper in the time it took me to get the new one delivered.

http://www.autozconcept.com/product_info.php?products_id=263

[renzop]

FishyFishFish,

Nothing f**ks up a car more than bargain coilovers. Dont't regret missing out on cr*p. I have seen these things advertised under at least 10 different brand names. Check out some Honda sites. They have the same ones for $600.

The problem with these and other cheap coilovers are the crummy adjustment mechanisms that jam after just a few months use and the poor rebound control and lack of real adjustability for low speed rebound.

If you want to save monet do it on springs but stick with name brand shocks or coilovers. And always match your shock rates to your spring rates. If a shock company can't tell you the range of spring rates for their shock then move on.

So, be happy that you "missed out" on this "bargain"

Regards,
Alan

[fishyfishfish]

Sound advice, and as far as these coilovers go, i'll take your word for it so thanks for the warning... however, i've found that the korean and/or chinese copies of overpriced european goodies marketed to porschephiles who automatically equate (over) price with quality are usually just as good -- the chinese headers on ebay being the best example... i could not tell the difference between the $100 ones and a pair of $1000 at my local porsche mechanic in santa monica, nor could the buyers, or the mechanic. but of course one was a brand that advertised in "Excellence" and one was not.

[chaudanova]

Gary, I have a Brand New set of RoW M030 "S" Springs... if you're interested in them, PM me.

[Benny986]

Originally Posted by Gary in BR

My current spring rates are 300 front and 500 rear.

I know these are very stiff, my original thought is to just go with softer springs. Most spring rates for the 986 are 200-300 range. The reason I am considering just going to a Bilsten-H&R setup is I will only have to do the work once.

DO you guys think softening the springs will help with the "porpoising" I am getting?

thats actually kinda of soft, and the range is interesting. i'm not too family with boxster spring setup, but is the 200lb difference front to rear normal?

i have 400s up front and 550 in the back. i also have a dual spring setup, so its actually a bit higher than that.

i also have higher canister pressures up front than out back. by about 100lbs i think.

my ride is very comfy.

are you on 19s? go back to 18s if so. what is your exact setup now? and describe how the car rides.

and by porpoising. do you mean that under acell, the front end seems to lift up? if so, i think our cars just do that.

[mn box s]

This thread got me down in my parking garage... and yes my car is still there ( a little dusty). Ok after measurements I was suprised to see by this style of measuring height that it was an even 4. All came in at 24-1/8" with 235/35/19 & 265/30/19 on oo' S running KW V2's with about 3" more to go in front and 3/4" to go in rear um dont think it would drive like that let alone get the jack out!

[Gary in BR]

Originally Posted by Benny986

thats actually kinda of soft, and the range is interesting. i'm not too family with boxster spring setup, but is the 200lb difference front to rear normal?




From looking at other coil over setups most do not have spring rates this high most are in the 200 - 300 range.





i have 400s up front and 550 in the back. i also have a dual spring setup, so its actually a bit higher than that.



i also have higher canister pressures up front than out back. by about 100lbs i think.
my ride is very comfy.
are you on 19s? go back to 18s if so. what is your exact setup now? and describe how the car rides.


I am going to ride on my OEM 17s for a week and see how it feels, that way I can decide if its the coil overs or the low profile rims.





and by porpoising. do you mean that under acell, the front end seems to lift up? if so, i think our cars just do that.

Porpoising may not be the term, I read it a few places and it is close to describing what I have going on. When I hit a dip in freeway the rear of the car feels as if it lifts off the ground, and once I know for a fact it did. If I hit a bump the same thing happens it feels as if the rear of the car is near coming off the ground.

AS far as any other driving the car is just fine, firm but thats what I wanted, al I want to solve is the rear end feeling, When I drove with the 19s and OEM struts and Elbachs I don't recall ever feeling this.

[mn box s]

-Porpoising may not be the term, I read it a few places and it is close to describing what I have going on. When I hit a dip in freeway the rear of the car feels as if it lifts off the ground, and once I know for a fact it did. If I hit a bump the same thing happens it feels as if the rear of the car is near coming off the ground.


Have you ruled out hitting your bump stops? I have seen this occur under those circumstances.

[Gary in BR]

Hitting the bump stops is a high possibility.
Now I will feel like a retard but I would assume if it was hitting the bump stops I would hear it?
The car does not make any noises from the suspension.
Is there a way to see if its hitting the bump stops?

[Gary in BR]

Originally Posted by mn box s

This thread got me down in my parking garage... and yes my car is still there ( a little dusty). Ok after measurements I was suprised to see by this style of measuring height that it was an even 4. All came in at 24-1/8" with 235/35/19 & 265/30/19 on oo' S running KW V2's with about 3" more to go in front and 3/4" to go in rear um dont think it would drive like that let alone get the jack out!

Ok Mn Box we need to talk.
You are running your suspension lower than mine (and I thought I was low) and you have the same type 349 19 inch rims I have.

How is your ride?
What size tires are do you have on the car?
Maybe my coilovers just suck!!

[mn box s]

Well I do know that camber (extreme) will wear tires fast. Im getting 2k miles on my rears ( three sets rear) about 70% on the fronts still. So I just purchased rear toe adjuster rods. My toe is waaaayy out and hope this will get me to about 5-6k on my rears. Id be happy with that its not like Im trying to get 20+k on the things.

I love my suspension! Yes I come from a long line of slammmmmed cars its not low enough until you cant barely drive it. .....Rides good! Just cant pull into my driveway from the left at over 5mph or Ill pull the left front fender off.

Might be some pics at my clubs myspace site TC Echelon or TCECHELON.COM

About bump stops on factory type suspension they are external and made of a hard foam usually orangish. Most performance suspensions have them internally and no you probably wont hear it if you hit it. It will feel like the suspension stopped moving downward abruptly and your car will basicly launch into the air. While your body feels sharp spine compaction and your kiddneys and organs go whoah! or something like that.

[Benny986]

ok curiosity got the better of me.

i am at 25 3/16 all around. from floor to the bottom of the fender.

2K and you want 5-6K mileage??? SERIOUSLY! Umm, thats all TOE, toe kills tires way faster than camber.

I drive my car hard, and i autox, and I plan on getting 12k-15K on my tires.

porpoising... umm, do this, drive on a bumpy road, have someone drive behind you, or next to you. does that wheel still bounce up and down several seconds after you have hit that bump? If so, that shock is blown. There is no dampening, and you are just basically relying on the spring for your suspension in that corner.

[Gary in BR]

Originally Posted by mn box s

Well I do know that camber (extreme) will wear tires fast. Im getting 2k miles on my rears ( three sets rear) about 70% on the fronts still. So I just purchased rear toe adjuster rods. My toe is waaaayy out and hope this will get me to about 5-6k on my rears. Id be happy with that its not like Im trying to get 20+k on the things.



I installed a set of adjustable toe arms on my rear tires a few thousand miles ago. The car drives better and I am noticing less tire wear. I bought mine from Tarrett Enginering but I think Board sponsor Deluboz sells them also





I love my suspension! Yes I come from a long line of slammmmmed cars its not low enough until you cant barely drive it. .....Rides good! Just cant pull into my driveway from the left at over 5mph or Ill pull the left front fender off.

Might be some pics at my clubs myspace site TC Echelon or TCECHELON.COM




I looked at your clubs site and the pictures appear to be prior to lowering the car.
Do you have any with the car lowered?





About bump stops on factory type suspension they are external and made of a hard foam usually orangish. Most performance suspensions have them internally and no you probably wont hear it if you hit it. It will feel like the suspension stopped moving downward abruptly and your car will basicly launch into the air. While your body feels sharp spine compaction and your kiddneys and organs go whoah! or something like that.

Your final paragraph describes my issue.
I have adjustable dampening on my coilovers, as of now they are in the soft setting, would firming the dampening fix this? Make it better? or Gary get those things off of your car?

I think I will try firming them a couple of clicks and see how that does.

[mn box s]

Try going here = "http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=165687236&albumId=992312" for some reason Ive never been able to pics on this site... dont know if its a Mac thing? Looks like Ill need my buddies wife to do an update on pics.

Yeah Id try adjusting the dampning. It does also sound like the springs are over working your shocks. Do you think you could have blown the rears out?

Yes I just purchased Deluboz adjustable toe arm. Glad to here that it helped for you.

[renzop]

First let me say that everyone is certainly entitled to do what they want with their cars. But it makes me ill to think that people are taking one of the best handling cars on the planet and slamming it.

Your car was designed to have the minimum wheel travel based on car weight, spring rate and expected road irregularities. Basically the worst bump you might hit will compress the suspension almost to the bump stops.

Lowering springs shorten wheel travel. If you reduce wheel travel you have two choices. You can use stiffer spring rates so the worst bump you might encounter still won't hit the bump stops. Or you can use a lighter than needed rate and every once in a while the car will bottom out and hit the bump stops. Lets talk about why both these solutions are bad.

Very stiff spring rates make the car ride like crap. Furthermore your shocks were designed to control the bouncing of the stock rate springs. Putting in higher rate springs without getting shocks designed for those higher rates will lead to poor wheel control. After you hit a bump, the tire will continue to bounce up and down because the shock (or damper) cannot control the spring. Also the overworked shock can overheat leading to premature shock failure.

So what happens if you lower but don't raise spring rates enough? You hit the bump stops. When this happens going straight it will mostly result in you and the car suddenly stopping your downward motion. It will feel like you got hit in the a$$ from below. You probably will not hear anything other than your own cursing because bump stops are rubber or urethane. Of course you might hear your shocks crying for mercy. The easiest way to blow a shock is to bottom it out.

But worse still, is what happens if one corner of the car hits the bump stop when in a turn. Basically, its like the spring rate suddenly went to infinity at that corner. This can lead to extreme and immediate under or oversteer. The car will radically change direction. If this happens you probably won't hear it either; only the crunching of crashed metal.

Lowering the car an inch with lowering springs is fine. More than that and you need to redesign shocks, steering geometry, etc.

Just my opinion. Please don't take offense if you don't agree.

Regards,
Alan

[mn box s]

Renzop I agree... its just that 1st KW V2s or v1s and v3s for that matter are a suspension package. It was designed to work with one another not the same as buying a shock from one co. and a spring from another or worse springs on stock shocks (being that you went any more than an inch. For the V2s on my car I have absolutly no issues. My suggestion on this is Im running @ about 80% on dampning. I personly love a kiddney jarring good time, even if it wears other components out faster. You just get to replace more things . As far as making the car handle worse than it was designed I do not agree. For one lowering the car can only lower the center of gravity. Two, the lower the car the more areo dynamic it becomes. Three, the stiffer the more responsive. Four the more camber larger the tire contact patch on the outside that is really giving you the "grip". This is all for the track of coarse and driving like this does have its down fall on the street. Too stiff and you will hop and slide (for the unsuspecting or unexperianced driver this is almost certain off road action. But in all seriousness you have gotta be pantie wetting low... well for that reason.

[renzop]

MNBOXX - I was just talking about lowering springs by themselves not coilovers or a designed complete suspension systems and I was talking about street driving. In general race trackes are much smoother then regular streets so you can go to much higher spring rates without bottoming (as long as you also go to much higher damping forces as well).

I disagree with your comment about the more camber the better. There is a balance between more negative camber and better cornering performance and too much neg camber and poor braking and acceleration. In general once you get beyond 2 degrees negative on drive wheels you start to give up acceleration grip and more than 3 degrees neg on non driven axles and you give up braking performance and stability under braking. YMMV

My comments were not meant for someone like you but for people who are only thinking about the looks of their lowered cars and are not aware of the compromises they may be making to the fine street handling and ride that Porsche developed for the Boxster.

Regards,
Alan

[mn box s]

No, you are absolutely correct about a good balance on the camber issue. I guess I was just getting at by slamming our ride as much as I have, it still is in an ok angle. I think it was under -3 deg. which is fine for me. Id have to look for my last print out of specs to fully remember. I guess my point was not to worry about that with lowering our cars and to worry more about the overall handling/braking /accelerating. I dont see any problems with shock/ spring set-ups as long as they work in unison and dialed into the car. Anyone have a recommended (through experience) set up? Theres got to be a few that perform. I would really like to see a comparison on the slolom sense its where the Box excels. And yes I don't think its ever in best decision to just throw springs on factory shocks unless you are planning on replacing them after about 10k. That is what I have seen with other German makes with something like H&R 2" drop. They usually seem to ride fine at first but then quickly deteriorate, ( especially on higher mileage vehicles). Just curious has anyone noticed about the same mileage on their Porsche's doing the same?

[Gary in BR]

Time for an update.

I adjusted the dampening on my coilovers. I went to the middle of the range in the rear and 20% in the front. I have the rear hopping issue almost solved. I have driven the car about 400 miles since I made the adjustments and have had only 1 unsettling moment. This is a major improvement because I was aiming for the unsettling parts of my drive tonight to see what happens.

I am going to try one full turn on the fronts and the back to see if I can get 100% hop free ride.

I will assume that the coilovers that I have are a good product but were not designed for my combination of 30 series tires on 19s.

The cars ride is a little rougher but not uncomfortable and the car seems even more planted than before. I have a new confidence with the car I have not had in a few months. I already noticed I get home a few minutes quicker

Thanks for the help.....next comes sway bars.


Will sway bars make my ride even more rough?

[mn box s]

I too have 30 series on 19s. Don't think the springs really know any different except there is more energy transfered to the springs. You just have to remember the ride will never be nice with that set-up so don't even try, just make that dampening stiff to slow down some more of that energy. If there's one thing that has always bothered me about factory vehicles, including Lambos and Rarrie's is they (low as they come) still ride high and soft. Let's see the weight transfer with that Box in the slalom now!