"...Not gonna go an faster in this car without taking out your wallet..."

[78F350]

Originally Posted by jsceash

AS for Weight loss my diet was as follows,...

Reminded me of a recent thread on another forum. Too late for you to get the shirt, but the concept represented on the shirt applies: 16 oz = 1 lb.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/16oz-1lb-im-making-shirts-again/143063/page1/

[maytag]

Originally Posted by 78F350

Reminded me of a recent thread on another forum. Too late for you to get the shirt, but the concept represented on the shirt applies: 16 oz = 1 lb.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/16oz-1lb-im-making-shirts-again/143063/page1/

Ha! I love it!

Does anyone have a simple equation that shows the relationship between weight loss vs HP? As-in: If I lose 100lbs, it's like gaining xx hp"?

[MaxD]

Lots of good advice and you can really see a theme.

You want an initial stable build so you can measure improvements. A baseline to start with, then start getting data on what works for that setup and how the driver responds to it.

I'm a fan of AIM stuff. I would suggest considering a Solo, new or used.

Don't worry about running GT3 LCAs on the street. If you run 0 toe in the front they will be quite streetable even with -3 degrees camber. No need to have street and track settings. Also they have rubber bushings in them and are actually intended for street use.

Also, don't bother with the Boxster Spec PSS9 shock. They are really a glorified street shock and Bilstein is so behind that they have been on backorder for the last year. Spec Miata just ditched Bilstein and went with Penske for their spec shock. Wish we could do the same.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by MaxD

Spec Miata just ditched Bilstein and went with Penske for their spec shock. Wish we could do the same.

Really curious about the cost of the Penske coilovers for the Spec Miata, because when I checked on the Penske website for the 981 I knew right away that would not be able to afford them...
Penske promotes them as a great street and track setup, which I believe they are but...

[husker boxster]

Interesting thread. Not sure what I can add, but here goes...

I have GT3 LCAs along with Tarett monoball bushings, thrust bushings, and rear toe arms. I have my camber set to -2.5 F & -2.1 R. The track alignment has helped prolong the life of my tires on the track. I run street tires (Conti Extreme Sports) along with stock rotors and Stop Tech Street / Track pads. Since my CSS is both a street and track car, my goal is to keep it as streetable as possible, knowing I will give up some performance on the track. I drive my car to and from the track. My original plan with the track alignment was to set it in the spring and leave it in place during track season, then set it back to stock when I put my snows on and use it as my "winter beater". During the track season, I drive my LE as my daily driver. However, life got in the way as 2 yrs ago my new boss decided I'd become a bad employee and let me go after 35 yrs at Mutual of Omaha. So I decided to just leave the track alignment on full time. I don't drive as much now that I'm "semi-retired", so I don't worry about burning off the inside edges of my snow tires. I discovered the insides haven't worn off very much, even on my summer tires, so it hasn't been expensive to leave the track alignment on.

It's not easy for me to compare times with others. Most of the cars in my local DEs are different than mine. And if there are similar cars, you don't know if they have tunes, or race tires, bigger brakes, etc. It's hard to compare accurately.

I left Indy last mo thinking I had driven it about as well as I could - that I'd reached the limit of my car. I thought about what I could do to reasonably take it mechanically to the next level. My first thought was to improve the brakes. Last summer, a friend of mine let me drive her 2014 CS and the brakes on her car were order of magnitude better than mine. I'm living on a tight budget until Apr next yr, when I turn 60 and will start taking my pension. At that time, I'll think about improving my brakes. That should fit my plan of keeping my car usable on the street while better on the track.

But then I started studying my videos. I've already seen several places I want to do different next yr. I've also studied my bonsai lap to determine why I was faster on that lap vs others. I did make an effort on that lap to set a hot time, so it might have been a 90-95% effort vs my normal 85-90. So maybe it won't be possible to run like that every lap, but there are things I learned, like I could accelerate earlier in certain places w/o kicking in the PSM. The other thing is I can be more consistent with hitting apexes. I will never be a machine and conditions of ea lap dictate where you drive, but being more consistent is a goal. jsceash's suggestion to view track segment data is a good one. I have the data from Indy but haven't run it yet. Have to add that to my To Do list. Bottom line is I thought I'd driven as well as I could, but it didn't take long to find some things to try next yr.

Keep the dialog flowing. Interesting thread.

[MaxD]

Really curious about the cost of the Penske coilovers for the Spec Miata,

I would expect it's going to be simple shock with limited if any adjustment.

No 3 way or 4 way shocks for spec, $$$$

[MWS]

Originally Posted by maytag

Does anyone have a simple equation that shows the relationship between weight loss vs HP? As-in: If I lose 100lbs, it's like gaining xx hp"?

Radium_King once posted "rule of thumb - 10 lbs = 1 hp" in the thread:
lightweight mirrors

Allow myself to quote myself (lol)...from the same thread:

"....I looked at the owners manual for some numbers, listed below (for a base w/ manual transmission):

217 HP ;Weight: between 2777 lbs and 2954 lbs, which I averaged at 2866 lbs; 0-60mph 6.5 sec

Now I understand that these numbers are not scalable, but for giggles, if they were:
2866lbs/6.5sec=441 lbs/sec or 0.002267 sec/lbs.
Given 5 lbs reduction, that would equal just 0.01133 sec reduction on the 0-60 time, or with a car stripped of 100 lbs, an increase of 2/10ths of a second 0-60...which somehow sounds about right (at least to me)....

I should stay away from numbers, and stop asking questions."

And I'll stand by that comment, or at least that I should stay away from numbers

[thstone]

Originally Posted by MWS

Radium_King once posted "rule of thumb - 10 lbs = 1 hp" in the thread:
lightweight mirrors

Lets test it.

Anyone in LA or OC have a stock 986 that they would be willing to use for a couple of 0-60 runs?

I'll bring my Spec Boxster (stock engine and trans) which has been weighed repeatedly at races (2655 lbs with 195 lb driver and 1/8 tank gas).

We can swap cars so we have two sets of data to average out the driver. You'll get to drive a Spec Boxster.

I also have an AIM Solo GPS timer which has a 0-60 mode. It starts counting as soon as motion is detected and stops the time at 60mph.

Then we can do the maths and know roughly what 1lb is worth in terms of 0-60 mph.

Its not perfect, but it will be fun and we'll have a rough order value to banter about.

PM me if interested.

[The Radium King]

i think it is just a weight/hp ratio; 2800 lb car / 260 hp or so approx equal to 10:1. for a heavy non-s you are looking at 3000/200 = 15:1. ballpark stuff.

you get what you pay for on the internet; instructors going to say be a better driver, spec racers are going to say to learn to drive the car you got first. i say, if you want to fiddle with you car then go for it; it won't make you slower, but it may distract you from improving technique if you are constantly relearning your car. i tend to batch it - start to get faster by the end of the season, then hide away in my garage for the winter and do a bunch of stuff to the car, then come back in the spring and start over. wrench race break repeat.

street/track alignment is tough. i did some measuring and determined that changing camber drastically affects toe such that you can't just change one on the morning of a track day without changing the other. options are to (a) learn how to do your own alignments (about $250 in tools and a few hours of your life that you'll never get back each time) or have a nearby shop do it for you as-and-when ($50/alignment if you can find it is worth the time it would take you) (b) get a compromise alignment, or (c) get a track alignment and see how you like it on the street (my recommendation).

understand negative camber. you want lots of it at the track. you can get negative camber by (a) pulling in the strut tops, or (b) lengthening the lower control arms. adjustable lower control arms are expensive and would not be my first stop in suspension mods. pulling the strut tops in is less expensive. you can get over -1 just in the factory strut tower slots. notch them with a dremmel to get more. get camber plates to get in the -3 neck of the woods OR, look at some of the less expensive coilovers. for some reason, the cheaper coilovers come with camber plates, while the more expensive do not. i am on $1300 ksport kontrol pros and have had zero problems over 5 hard years of living, can get -3 up front with the built-in camber plates, and have rebound adjustability to move back and forth from street to track. cons - control arms widen your track (good) while camber plates do not. BUT, this way you can get coilovers (and ability to corner balance - good good good) and camber adjustment for the cost of just lcas otherwise. downside - can't run them if you go spec, and would want to upgrade them if your car became a dedicated track machine (feal will rebuild).

my advice - get as much camber in the front as you can get stock - notch your strut tower if you wish. get good tires - nittos - and make a decision on wheels (track wheels will stay with you as your car evolves). do the sways - these will dramatically help with roll and maintaining contact patch, do not impact street behaviour, and are an improvement that will stay with you as your car evolves. do the brakes (motul rbf600, stainless lines, pagid yellow pads, gt3 cooling ducts). do reliability mods (oiling, 2nd gear, water pump, underdrive pully, etc.).

spend a year on that and you will be able to make a more informed decision on the bigger ticket items like coilovers and control arms (specifically, you'll have a better idea of whether you are building a track or compromise setup).

note that exhaust and seats were the biggest weight losses on jsceash's list; both mods provide benefits in other areas as well - a hp bump with the exhaust, a more stable driver with the seat. think about those if you want to start working on weight loss, power improvements, etc. harness and hans are good things to add as well.

[Topless]

Everyone has a different approach to this. If you want to have a dual-purpose street/track car that is capable, you really need some track capable tires and a setup to maximize your contact patch and avoid grinding off the shoulders like you are doing now.

After 10 years running a 986 in DE/TT this is what I recommend:

- M030 suspension or equivalent. If you can't get that, just get stiffer springs that lower the car 20mm.

- GT3 A-arms or equivalent. This is by far the best way to get more negative camber in the front to complete your setup. There are a dozen other shade-tree methods to get negative camber but your setup shop will thank you if you just get the GT3 arms.

- A pro corner balance and alignment by a respected race-prep shop in your area. It costs $450 around here and is worth every penny.

- NT-01 tires or equivalent. They are easy to drive fast, are good to the last cord, and will typically go 8-10 track days if you rotate them for even wear.

- Harrys Laptimer or equivalent app with hi res GPS receiver. This will be your personal coach to give you quick comparisons between your last lap, best lap, or theoretical best lap.

- Brake pads that will hold up to track temps. I favor ST-43 due to their very high heat tolerance and excellent modulation. Others like Pagid or Performance Friction. I think brand is less important than finding a good hi temp pad that compliments your tire choice and driving style.

With these things you will have a very track capable car that won't beat you up on the street. If you add seats, harnesses, HANS, roll cage, fire suppression it will be safer but damn unfriendly on the street. Tough call. I have gone both ways and my current car has a stock interior.

Now it's time to look up track records for similar car at the local PCA and NASA websites. If you don't know how to find them, ask your CDI at the next event. Track records give you a very good baseline and a goal to work towards as you develop your driving skills. If you are 1/2 second off the track record in a similar car, it might be the car. If you are 5 seconds off the track record, it's you.

PCA is hosting an intro to data analysis class on Oct. 14 at WSIR with a DE/AX the following day to apply what you have learned. Get your car sorted and come hang with us for the weekend. This will be a great way to develop your skills and have a method to evaluate each track day moving forward.

http://pcagpx.motorsportreg.com/

Good hunting and as always, YMMV

[maytag]

Originally Posted by Topless

Now it's time to look up track records for similar car at the local PCA and NASA websites. ...... If you are 1/2 second off the track record in a similar car, it might be the car. If you are 5 seconds off the track record, it's you.

We're lucky that SteD0x did it for us already, in a post yesterday:

Originally Posted by steved0x

Looks like a 2:18.252 set last year, the lap you shared in the other thread was a 2:22.54, which is (in seconds) 138.252/142.54=97% so by my metrics that is smoking fast!

That's a SPB record, so we can assume a fully-prepared car. Are you suggesting (topless) that I should be able to get within 1/2 second of this record in my 147k mile car without modifications? to me, that seems ambitious. But if you've seen that be the case, I'm all ears. Personally, I think there's still maybe 2 seconds I can find by smoothing some things out. But I don't think there's 4 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong?

Frankly, if you're telling me it's possible to get within a 1/2 second of the lap record without spending $30k to build a SPB, then that would become the MOST EXPENSIVE half-Second in the HISTORY of half-seconds. haha

Originally Posted by The Radium King

understand negative camber. you want lots of it at the track. you can get negative camber by (a) pulling in the strut tops, .... you can get over -1 just in the factory strut tower slots. notch them with a dremmel to get more. get camber plates to get in the -3 neck of the woods ..... for some reason, the cheaper coilovers come with camber plates, while the more expensive do not. i am on $1300 ksport kontrol pros and have had zero problems over 5 hard years of living, can get -3 up front with the built-in camber plates, and have rebound adjustability to move back and forth from street to track. ..... this way you can get coilovers (and ability to corner balance - good good good) and camber adjustment for the cost of just lcas otherwise.

my advice - get as much camber in the front as you can get stock - ..... get good tires - nittos - a..... do the sways - these will dramatically help with roll and maintaining contact patch, ..... do the brakes (motul rbf600, stainless lines, pagid yellow pads, gt3 cooling ducts). do reliability mods (oiling, 2nd gear, water pump, underdrive pully, etc.).

spend a year on that and you will be able to make a more informed decision on the bigger ticket items like coilovers and control arms (specifically, you'll have a better idea of whether you are building a track or compromise setup).

This advice is speaking to me this afternoon, along with some of the others here. maybe because it includes some of the direction I've been going anyway: RBF600, GT3 Cooling ducts, water pump & t-stat, UDP, etc etc.

I'm still seeing conflicting opinions on square vs staggered.

[Topless]

Originally Posted by maytag

We're lucky that SteD0x did it for us already, in a post yesterday:



That's a SPB record, so we can assume a fully-prepared car. Are you suggesting (topless) that I should be able to get within 1/2 second of this record in my 147k mile car without modifications? to me, that seems ambitious. But if you've seen that be the case, I'm all ears. Personally, I think there's still maybe 2 seconds I can find by smoothing some things out. But I don't think there's 4 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong?

Frankly, if you're telling me it's possible to get within a 1/2 second of the lap record without spending $30k to build a SPB, then that would become the MOST EXPENSIVE half-Second in the HISTORY of half-seconds. haha



This advice is speaking to me this afternoon, along with some of the others here. maybe because it includes some of the direction I've been going anyway: RBF600, GT3 Cooling ducts, water pump & t-stat, UDP, etc etc.

I'm still seeing conflicting opinions on square vs staggered.

In "similar cars" Yes you can. That means similar wt/hp, tires, and setup. An 03 Box S should be very close on the same tires and a decent setup with some camber in the front. On a long track where you can stretch your legs the 03 should be faster with higher hp. On a tight track with a lot of corners the SPB will have the edge due to better wt/grip. Right now you not in a similar car. You are camber-challenged and leaving a lot of time on the table while shredding the shoulders of your tires. Using ALL of your contact patch needs to be priority one IMO.

My base Cayman is 261 hp and on the same tires runs well with the SPB guys at Fontana, Laguna Seca, and Buttonwillow. They will get me at Chuckwalla and Streets due to tighter tracks and lighter weight. An 03 Box S and 09 Base Cayman turn very similar laps on the same tires and setup so a very good comparison.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/zemohc1ti88s


I also run the exact same setup street or track. I have alignment checked and corner balanced annually and that is it. Nice even tire wear with no drivability issues at all. I don't know why you would change it unless you were running extreme camber/toe settings.


For reference, the POC historical track record for BSR (SPBOX) at AAA Speedway is Nathan Johnson at 1:55.5 on Toyo RR 40TW tires. Last April I ran a 1:55.2 on RE71r street tires. Boxster Spec track records are well within our reach once we use all of the contact patch.

[MaxD]

Here is a better source of lap records for the various track configurations at UMC. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you the make and model of car in the NASA classes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GsONhXO4OCIaT0Q4ecpQk3v4pVk6-_J2vR5fvb86EDQ/edit#gid=165366706[

Mark's record is from last years PCA club race and he was the only Spec Boxster. Other specs have run in GT4 past years. One big thing missing from the ClubRace site is what configuration was run for the time.

I have TTC records in my base Boxster from when the class existed. Adam Heller's GTS2 times are from an S racecar, as are Bill Noblitt's PTB times.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by MaxD

Here is a better source of lap records for the various track configurations at UMC. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you the make and model of car in the NASA classes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GsONhXO4OCIaT0Q4ecpQk3v4pVk6-_J2vR5fvb86EDQ/edit#gid=165366706[

Mark's record is from last years PCA club race and he was the only Spec Boxster. Other specs have run in GT4 past years. One big thing missing from the ClubRace site is what configuration was run for the time.

I have TTC records in my base Boxster from when the class existed. Adam Heller's GTS2 times are from an S racecar, as are Bill Noblitt's PTB times.

This great, Max!
So what I'm seeing then, is a LARGE disparity, between SPB (2:19.022) vs the two S racecars you described, GTS2 (2:12.341) and PTB (2:09.677)

I don't know which of those times I'd use as a gauge to compare my own largely-unmodified 'S' to. If I'm comparing my 2:22 to the SPB 2:19, I'm seeing it. If I'm comparing to the 2:12 or 2:09, then I'm gonna throw-in the towel right now.... 'cuz there ain't now way in HELL that -I- (me) can get within a stone's throw of those times with the car I'm driving now, as it is. If somebody else CAN, then yeah.... I'm not so good at this after all, huh? And all 4 of the instructors who've ridden with me this year have simply been blowing up my skirt....

That's a little demoralizing.

[Topless]

Originally Posted by maytag

This great, Max!
So what I'm seeing then, is a LARGE disparity, between SPB (2:19.022) vs the two S racecars you described, GTS2 (2:12.341) and PTB (2:09.677)

I don't know which of those times I'd use as a gauge to compare my own largely-unmodified 'S' to. If I'm comparing my 2:22 to the SPB 2:19, I'm seeing it. If I'm comparing to the 2:12 or 2:09, then I'm gonna throw-in the towel right now.... 'cuz there ain't now way in HELL that -I- (me) can get within a stone's throw of those times with the car I'm driving now, as it is. If somebody else CAN, then yeah.... I'm not so good at this after all, huh? And all 4 of the instructors who've ridden with me this year have simply been blowing up my skirt....

That's a little demoralizing.

I'd say no. Those "S" race cars probably have the same motor but are running R7 tires and are 500lbs lighter. Not a good comparison to a full weight street car on shredded shoulder street tires. From your times I agree with your instructors that you have good driving skill. Now it's time to get your tires and setup in the game.

[The Radium King]

FS: Tarett Front camber plate set for a 987 - Pelican Parts Forums

[maytag]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

FS: Tarett Front camber plate set for a 987 - Pelican Parts Forums

thanks RK! Good eye, man!

Now find me some half-price LCA's too, will ya? haha

[thstone]

Originally Posted by maytag

If I'm comparing my 2:22 to the SPB 2:19, I'm seeing it.

Perfect! Now that we have a general idea of where you stand, I agree that its time to improve the car.

I'd suggest (as others have) starting with camber (adj LCA), tires (NT-01), and brake pads (EBC Yellow or similar race/street pad). Those will make the biggest difference for the $$ invested.

If you really want to do something about the shocks, springs, and sways, then M030. Otherwise, they can wait because these are fairly big ticket items.

Also, you'll have to make some hard decisions about street drivability and comfort in regards to a racing or sport seat and harnesses vs the stock seats and seatbelts. A sport/racing seat with a 6pt harness will help keep you in the seat about a million times better than the stock seat and seatbelt, but it comes at a cost.

Its a slippery slope...

[rastta]

Originally Posted by thstone

Its a slippery slope...

Understatement of the year!

[MaxD]

In my own experience this is where data is helpful once you have a platform that doesn't change every event.

My car is basically a Spec Boxster without a cage and hard top. I had hit a wall at ~2:17/18 on Outer. Careful review of my outings showed a few track sectors where I was lifting when I shouldn't, a corners Vmin was not consistent and much higher on some laps, etc. I applied knowledge of that to my next events.

Now my personal best on Outer is 2:12.8 on A7s and I've run lots 2:14s and 15s on RRs. I ran a 2:16 and change on NT01s last Saturday with the 30-60mph gusts that day. (It was not optimal for setting fast times)

Don't be demoralized. You are right on target.