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Old 11-06-2006, 05:29 AM   #1
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Dealer says: Change oil in spring?

The consensus on this and other boards has been to change the oil BEFORE storing the car for the winter. The dealer recommends doing the oil change AFTER the storage in spring, instead. He is recommending not to make any money right now. Why?
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:37 AM   #2
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Assuming the oil has some miles on it,

I would think changing it in the fall before laying it up makes more sense. New,clean oil without contaminents would seem to make more sense for long term storage.

I'm sure there are others on the board with specific knowledge, but IIRC, the main culpert is acid in the higher mileage oil with can work on bearings, etc..

I'll yield to my learned colleges...
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:43 AM   #3
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There's 4300 miles on the car. Bought new in May.
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:47 AM   #4
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Z, how many miles do you have? I could see you going either way on this is you have only 2-3,000 miles. If you have close to 7,000 you are about due regardless.

I changed my oil at 1,200 and again at 7,200 just before storage. I did one long drive the weekend before storage, of about 350 miles.

If you change it now, then you would probably establish the pattern to do it each year prior to winter storage, and this might be your best option.

Maybe the dealership is planning a big price increase for 2007 and wants to nick ya in the Spring!!
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:49 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by MikenOH
I would think changing it in the fall before laying it up makes more sense. New,clean oil without contaminents would seem to make more sense for long term storage.

I'm sure there are others on the board with specific knowledge, but IIRC, the main culpert is acid in the higher mileage oil with can work on bearings, etc..

I'll yield to my learned colleges...
Hi,

You're correct, changing before storage is the recommended procedure. In-service Oil can acumulate acidic compounds, and Fuel, which will strip the Oil from the Internals. But, perhaps the biggest reason to change the Oil is to flush the moisture (a natural combustion by-product) which has accumulated.

If this moisture is allowed to remain in the engine through the storage period, as the temperature swings, the moisture will evaporate and will later condense as water on the cool engine internals causing corrosion and pitting.

This is considered the preferred method by every Museum, longterm storage facility and article on longterm storage, no real debate on it. Even the local Porsche Dealership offers a Winter Storage Service and this includes a fresh Oil Change as well. There is no advantage whatever in storing a car with used Oil in it. I assume they are going by mileage, but the Oil should be changed at the Mileage Interval (preferrably sooner than Porsche's recommended Interval - 7500 mi. is best), or annually. Sorry, but the other dealer is just plain wrong...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Last edited by MNBoxster; 11-06-2006 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 11-06-2006, 06:52 AM   #6
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Looks like even with only 4400 miles (and especially since those include the break-in miles) the best is to change the oil before storage.
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Old 11-06-2006, 03:53 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by z12358
The consensus on this and other boards has been to change the oil BEFORE storing the car for the winter. The dealer recommends doing the oil change AFTER the storage in spring, instead. He is recommending not to make any money right now. Why?
Z.
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IHave you considered driving it occasionally during the winter months. i.e. whenever the roads are clear/dry?
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:54 PM   #8
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We already covered that one already. Sounds tempting but consensus was that it's better for the car not to touch it. Those cold starts are not good for the engine. And I also thought it'd be a pain to wash it after each drive. Leaving it all dusty and salty for few weeks doesn't sound good either. Even when roads are dry and clear there's still a lot of salt/dust left on the roads in winter. Remains to be seen... The temptation may just become too strong on a nice sunny dry day.
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IHave you considered driving it occasionally during the winter months. i.e. whenever the roads are clear/dry?
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Old 11-06-2006, 06:44 PM   #9
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I would change it before winter and drive the car at least once week during the winter if possible. Drive it to full operating temp.

Short of that, change oil before winter and follow dry storage recs.

Dealer is wrong.

Or, change both before and after. If you do this, throw in some cheap ass oil for winter.
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:37 PM   #10
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I would change it before winter and drive the car at least once week during the winter if possible. Drive it to full operating temp.

Short of that, change oil before winter and follow dry storage recs.

Dealer is wrong.

Or, change both before and after. If you do this, throw in some cheap ass oil for winter.
Hi,

Sorry Rich, I have to disagree. The primary reason for changing the Oil prior to storage in the first place is to get rid of the moisture laden Oil. If you run the car over the storage season, you defeat this purpose by introducing moisture back into the system.

Also, everytime you start the car in a cold condition, you're putting a lot more wear on it than if you run it in temperate weather. A daily driver experiences this as well, and while it may not grenade on you, I suspect that if you check tolerances, compression, etc. you'll find that the car stored and left will post better numbers down the road (which translates into lower repair costs/longer life).

It would be very bad to idle the car until warm because you're not running the RPMs sufficiently to assure full Oil pressure. Also, since you've overinflated the tires to prevent flat-spotting, you'd have to lower their pressure to have good traction and be safe on the street. Not to mention that if your battery is pulled, you'd have to reinstall and connect it as well, and you'd be using fuel, dropping the level in the tank, creating a void which would allow moist air to migrate into the tank and condense later.

The best thing is to set it and forget it. It's hard to do, but it's the best thing for the car. If you're not going to follow this, then all the work you put into storing it is just a waste of time...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Last edited by MNBoxster; 11-06-2006 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 11-07-2006, 05:52 AM   #11
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I should have been more explicit. When I say run it to full operating temp, I meant to take the car out and drive it such that it burns off all moisture etc. That way all parts get lubricated, tires don't flatten, etc. This assumes that scenario is doable. This might take 30 minutes or so.

I believe that is preferrable to having a car sit all winter. But that may be just an old wives tale.
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:11 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brucelee
I should have been more explicit. When I say run it to full operating temp, I meant to take the car out and drive it such that it burns off all moisture etc. That way all parts get lubricated, tires don't flatten, etc. This assumes that scenario is doable. This might take 30 minutes or so.

I believe that is preferrable to having a car sit all winter. But that may be just an old wives tale.

Hi,

The funny thing about old wives tales is their propensity to be true, or at least to have been true.

Such is the case here. In the old days, what you say about burning off the moisture was much more true. This was because engines had direct-to-atmosphere Oil venting. Today, these vapors are routed to the intake plenum and burned along with the AF mix, to save Mother Earth.

Remember, as you are burning off this moisture, you're also producing more moisture in the process (and with Fresh Oil, it isn't moisture laden to begin with). Once the engine is shutdown, in the old vented engines, the moisture would remain a vapor for some time and natural convection would work it to the vent and out. But, in today's engines, once stopped, there is no place for this moisture to go. Eventually, it cools and condenses on the internals.

So far as lubricating parts, Fresh Oil (which you include prior to storage) has the greatest ability to cling to the metal parts (because it's additive pkg. hasn't flashed-off). So there's no need to periodically circulate the Oil - You don't need to lubricate parts which are idle. The only thing you want here is a thin layer of Oil on the parts to act as a buffer between the metal and the atmoshere to prohibit corrosion and pitting, and you get this when you circulate the fresh Oil just after the Oil change.

Since you over-inflated the Tires at storage time, there's no need to run them to prevent flat-spotting. In fact, if you do, you can actually increase their potential to do so. This is because they will come back in hot, on a now cool garage floor, this temp difference (which was not so pronounced at storage time) will cool the tires faster and cause them to retain their final state instead of cooling together with the floor slowly.

Of course, this isn't the only way to store a car. People can (and do) simply park it and switch it off, and any and all degrees in-between. It's just that a lot of research and experience (mine and countless others I know personally, and through reading) seems to agree that this is the best way. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

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Old 11-07-2006, 07:28 AM   #13
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Storing on jacks

I spoke with a guy who stores all his Corvettes up on jack stands and takes the wheels off for the winter. I told him that that's bad for the suspension to be left hanging like that. He said that he's well aware of that. He apparently uses points on the suspension itself (very close to the wheels?) to carry the load of the car, so the suspension is sprung exactly the same as it would be if the wheels were on -- nothing is hanging on the springs. How is this possible? Are you familiar with such jack stand points?

Thx,
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:36 AM   #14
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childish taunt

thank god I dont live where you need to do "winter storage"

it sounds like a real ********************!!

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Old 11-07-2006, 07:42 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by z12358
I spoke with a guy who stores all his Corvettes up on jack stands and takes the wheels off for the winter. I told him that that's bad for the suspension to be left hanging like that. He said that he's well aware of that. He apparently uses points on the suspension itself (very close to the wheels?) to carry the load of the car, so the suspension is sprung exactly the same as it would be if the wheels were on -- nothing is hanging on the springs. How is this possible? Are you familiar with such jack stand points?

Thx,
Z.
Hi,

Yes, it's called loading the suspension. Older cars without a Chapman Strut (think leaf springs and shocks) benefitted from being raised to prevent spring sag. But, this isn't true of cars with independent, strut mounted suspensions. It is not recommended to raise an IS car.

The springs aren't the only reason not to have the car up on blocks unloaded. The rubber bushings have a memory and won't repond well to proplonged periods in a different position, causing them to loosen or wear prematurely.

Another reason is that you don't want to hyper-extend the Piston Rods in the shocks as these can then either corrode or accumulate dirt on parts of the Rod which isn't normally protruding from the Strut Body. If this happens, this part of the Rod can tear or otherwise interfere with the Sealing Ring on top of the strut when it reinserts itself, increasing the seal's potential to leak and fail prematurely.

You could install adjustable stands or wood blocks under the bottom of the struts at ride height (raise the axle higher, install blocks, and lower) to keep everything in it's nominal state. But, the only benefit is that you reduce the potential for flat-spotting the tires which you have already done by over-inflating them. Won't hurt to do it, but won't help either and it's a lot more work (both at hibernation and reawakening times), + it makes it very difficult to move the car in the event this is needed. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Last edited by MNBoxster; 11-08-2006 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:53 AM   #16
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MNBoxster:
"You could install adjustable stands or wood blocks under the bottom of the struts at ride height (raise the axle higher, install blocks, and lower) to keep everything in it's nominal state. But, the only benefit is that you reduce the potential for flat-spotting the tires which you have already done by over-inflating them. Won't hurt to do it, but won't help either and it's a lot more work (both at hybernation and reawakening times), + it makes it very difficult to move the car in the event this is needed. Hope this helps..."


So he does eliminate the potential for flat-spotting without any negative effects, apart from the hassle involved. I didn't know those points existed. As you say, it's a good day whenever you learn something.
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Old 11-07-2006, 08:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by z12358
MNBoxster:
"You could install adjustable stands or wood blocks under the bottom of the struts at ride height (raise the axle higher, install blocks, and lower) to keep everything in it's nominal state. But, the only benefit is that you reduce the potential for flat-spotting the tires which you have already done by over-inflating them. Won't hurt to do it, but won't help either and it's a lot more work (both at hybernation and reawakening times), + it makes it very difficult to move the car in the event this is needed. Hope this helps..."


So he does eliminate the potential for flat-spotting without any negative effects, apart from the hassle involved. I didn't know those points existed. As you say, it's a good day whenever you learn something.
Thx.
Z.
Hi,

Well, yes, but no more than overinflating the tires will. A lot more work for no gain. I wouldn't do it. I have stored 3 cars every year since 1989, and except for a set of Steel Belted Potenzas which were on my 240Z in '89, I've never had a problem with flatspotting since all the cars acquired Kevlar, or Kevlar-like, fabric belted tires.

There's just too much paranoia over this issue. Modern Tires just do not permanently flatspot from remaining static.

I believe that many of the people complaining of it are either feeling things which just aren't there, or flatspotted the tires previously in a Panic Stop (the kind you can't eliminate) and didn't realize it. I belong to 3 local car clubs (over 150 members total), and I don't know anyone who raises the car and removes the tires to prevent flatspotting when storing their cars for the winter...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:00 AM   #18
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I am about to store my car for the winter, but don't think I will get a chance to change the oil. Would it make sense to take the car out every once in a while for a drive if the oil isn't changed?
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Old 12-01-2006, 10:32 AM   #19
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Just bumping this thread to see if anyone can answer my question in the post above
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Old 12-01-2006, 10:40 AM   #20
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Just bumping this thread to see if anyone can answer my question in the post above

Hi Ecwfan, there is some awesome info here about winter storage. Plese do an advance search withthe following:

Keyword- winter storage
Search By- MNBoxster

and you will find some great links.

In short, NO, don't run the car. Just let 'er sit till spring.
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