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Old 03-30-2020, 12:32 PM   #1
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Obtaining historical records

Hello,

I am buying a 2004 boxster,
the current owner bought the car from a Porsche dealership and was told
that the engine was replaced presumably due to an IMSB failure,
but he has no supporting documentation and the Porsche Dealership involved
claims not to have records going back that far

Carfax also states that at that time the clutch assembly was replaced,
however no information about the engine replacement.

My mission is to know for certain that this car has a replacement engine.
Has anyone got any suggestions on what I could do?

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Old 03-31-2020, 02:21 PM   #2
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A replacement engine will have the characters "AT" (Austauschmotor) in the serial number stamped on the engine.

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Old 03-31-2020, 03:19 PM   #3
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Has anyone got any suggestions on what I could do?
Without documentation, I would have to assume that it never happened.

I would either walk away or buy the car assuming that the engine was never replaced (and adjust the price accordingly).
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Old 03-31-2020, 08:32 PM   #4
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Carfax also states that at that time the clutch assembly was replaced,
however no information about the engine replacement.
That would seem to be your answer...
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Old 03-31-2020, 10:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_wheels View Post
My mission is to know for certain that this car has a replacement engine.
I've been down this same road before involving Porsche "replacement engines". As stated earlier, a Porsche "replacement engine" will display the characters "AT" in the engine number.



You stated that the Porsche dealership "claims not to have records going back that far". Fine. I don't care what the Carfax says, to determine if the engine is indeed a Porsche "replacement engine" have the owner supply you with the engine number.

Just sayin'........

TO

Last edited by TeamOxford; 03-31-2020 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 04-01-2020, 07:23 AM   #6
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TeamOxford - can I see the engine number w/o raising the car ?

Seller found an email with items done to the car at that time,
there was a line there saying :

NV Wty Intermediate Shaft

Also managed to speak to a Porsche NA representative that confirmed that the
engine was pulled out and either they put in a reconditioned engine or reconditioned
the original engine and put it back - not sure what that means - maybe means they
replaced ims with the LNE ims ?
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Old 04-01-2020, 02:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_wheels View Post
TeamOxford - can I see the engine number w/o raising the car ?
Doubtful. Unless you are REALLY thin. You could always drive the car to an oil change joint and check it from the grease pit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_wheels View Post
there was a line there saying :
NV Wty Intermediate Shaft
I don't know what this means, but I assume that "Wty" stands for "warranty".

Just sayin'...........

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Old 04-01-2020, 02:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_wheels View Post
TeamOxford - can I see the engine number w/o raising the car ?

Seller found an email with items done to the car at that time,
there was a line there saying :

NV Wty Intermediate Shaft

Also managed to speak to a Porsche NA representative that confirmed that the
engine was pulled out and either they put in a reconditioned engine or reconditioned
the original engine and put it back - not sure what that means - maybe means they
replaced ims with the LNE ims ?
the chance of a LNE replacement is between slim and none and slim left town last week
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Old 04-01-2020, 03:57 PM   #9
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I'm with JayG on this one. There is little to no chance that Porsche NA would ever put in an LN Engineering IMS in there, unless the previous owner/customer forked up the cash to do this themselves. Even that would be highly unlikely.
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Old 04-01-2020, 05:16 PM   #10
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I know from experience that PCNA are very stingy with historical data. The problem, as I understand it, is due to privacy concerns and protecting previous owners anonymity. With out the prior owners permission, it won't be released. As for the notion they don't have 'documentation that far back' that is just plain horse feathers.

I agree with previous posts. Porsche would never use anything but OEM parts on a warranty repair. Without proper documentation, assume it didn't happen. Adjust your offer accordingly.
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:50 AM   #11
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I know from experience that PCNA are very stingy with historical data. The problem, as I understand it, is due to privacy concerns and protecting previous owners anonymity. With out the prior owners permission, it won't be released. As for the notion they don't have 'documentation that far back' that is just plain horse feathers.

I agree with previous posts. Porsche would never use anything but OEM parts on a warranty repair. Without proper documentation, assume it didn't happen. Adjust your offer accordingly.
Several years back, there was a legal case the ballooned into a class action over who actually owns and should have access to vehicle records. Basically, the outcome was that the records are the property of the vehicle owner at the time they were recorded, which means that a dealer can legitimately be taken to court for sharing the information, even after the vehicle has changed hands. That has made most dealers totally gun-shy of sharing information.

Our legal advisors require us to get written permission before we share any data, which is often difficult as people move and you cannot find them to obtain permission. Net result is that it has become easier to just say no than spend the time for which you are not going to get paid.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:39 AM   #12
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A reasonable dealer, agent, or authority would release/reveal the service records absent any personally identifiable information.

But, nooooooooooooooooooo.
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:09 AM   #13
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A reasonable dealer, agent, or authority would release/reveal the service records absent any personally identifiable information.

But, nooooooooooooooooooo.
If they did, they would be in direct violation of the court ruling. The issue is not the owner's identity, it is the fact that they own the information, not the dealer.
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Last edited by JFP in PA; 04-02-2020 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:28 AM   #14
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why would an owner of the car 12 years ago care about releasing information now,
it's directly related to the car, not the owner.

It is very natural that a car will have multiple owner during its life,
and the information about a car's history since purchased new should
be available to any new owner.

I don't understand what is the big deal here
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:16 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by ty_wheels View Post
why would an owner of the car 12 years ago care about releasing information now,
it's directly related to the car, not the owner.

It is very natural that a car will have multiple owner during its life,
and the information about a car's history since purchased new should
be available to any new owner.

I don't understand what is the big deal here
The "big deal" is that the federal courts ruled shops cannot release the data without permission, period. So regardless of anyone's opinion on the subject, it is what we have to deal with. This has even cost the shops money as we are now required to store all such data "in a secure location which complies with federal guidelines".

It is no different than a four lane, wide open roadway with a 25 MPH speed limit, you ignore it at your own peril...………...
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Last edited by JFP in PA; 04-02-2020 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_wheels View Post
why would an owner of the car 12 years ago care about releasing information now,
it's directly related to the car, not the owner.

It is very natural that a car will have multiple owner during its life,
and the information about a car's history since purchased new should
be available to any new owner.

I don't understand what is the big deal here
Looks like the big deal is because of the lawyers.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:06 AM   #17
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when I wrote "big deal" I did not mean to disrespect the law,
I understand this had a ruling, my question was why, what is the big
deal in keeping these records confidential ?
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ty_wheels View Post
when I wrote "big deal" I did not mean to disrespect the law,
I understand this had a ruling, my question was why, what is the big
deal in keeping these records confidential ?
Good question. Who knows. But if JFP in PA says it's a thing, then it's a thing. I'm just as baffled about it as you.

I still blame it on the lawyers!

Last edited by piper6909; 04-02-2020 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:14 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by JFP in PA View Post
"in a secure location which complies with federal guidelines"
I know that burden. Thank you for the explanation.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:27 AM   #20
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Good question. I guess some former owners are concerned about being sued for negligence, if a lack of maintenance was found that led to an accident? It's the only thing I can think of. Or privacy issues? Who knows. But if JFP in PA says it's a thing, then it's a thing. I'm just as baffled about it as you.
It has to do with new car dealerships selling information about their customers to firms that compile statistical automotive data; someone somewhere took exception to the dealerships making money off of their information without them even knowing about it. When the dealers did not share the $, and showed no inclination to stop doing it, someone file suit over who "owned" the information, and was therefore entitled to any $ associated with its dissemination or use.

A couple of the usual ambulance chasers saw a chance to make money off of this and turned the filing into a class action, where anyone that had bought a car or had it serviced was entitled to damages, which they had to share with the ambulance chasers. Because the problem crossed state lines, it became a federal legal matter, which means the ruling affects every shop in the country.

Next thing you know, your service data became akin to a national secret. This was your classical pyric victory for the car owners, as very few actually got more than lunch money out of the settlement, the industry is saddled with rules requiring secure storage protection for all customer information, which raised service costs, which were promptly added to every service invoice. Only the lawyers actually won anything of consequence...……..

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Last edited by JFP in PA; 04-02-2020 at 11:34 AM.
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