single row IMSB?

[BOOTLEG]

Can anyone confirm that my IMSB is single row?
Thx

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by BOOTLEG

Can anyone confirm that my IMSB is single row?
Thx

I would say that is a dual row:



The single row would look like this:

[BOOTLEG]

I just bought this engine and am planning to put in my 01 S after I deal with the IMSB issue. I read through the archives on DOF, ceramics and opening the shaft for oil flow. Although the new IMS Solution is most attractive, it is off my list due to cost and no DIY. It seems the "Eternal Fix" where oil flows through the shaft to a roller bearing might be the best choice for me. It seems even the thrust concerns are addressed. Before I write a check and get out my wrenches, I would appreciate the input from others on this forum.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by BOOTLEG

I just bought this engine and am planning to put in my 01 S after I deal with the IMSB issue. I read through the archives on DOF, ceramics and opening the shaft for oil flow. Although the new IMS Solution is most attractive, it is off my list due to cost and no DIY. It seems the "Eternal Fix" where oil flows through the shaft to a roller bearing might be the best choice for me. It seems even the thrust concerns are addressed. Before I write a check and get out my wrenches, I would appreciate the input from others on this forum.

First of all, the LN IMS Solution is a DIY system if you so choose, and is by far the best choice. Your only real draw back is that LN is behind in keeping up supply for these units due to high demand, but you can definitely do it yourself. As for the "infernal fix" roller bearing, I really would not go there for several reasons A lot of the claims for this thing are unsubstantiated due to a very small installed base and no reported data. Secondly, punching a hole in one end of the IMS shaft with a sharpened tool is nearly Neanderthal. You have no control over the actual final size of the hole as you are smacking a punch with a hammer rather than drilling a controlled sized opening. Regardless of how you put the hole in the far end of the shaft, the shaft is now going to be at least partially filled with oil, which at speed can cause an out of balance condition as well as stealing part of the systems total oil capacity unnecessarily at the worst possible time. To me, this thing is an unproven answer in search of a question.

[jdraupp]

Why not just keep your dual row bearing? The chances of a dual row failing are slim to none. It's the single rows that have the highest rate of failure.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by jdraupp

Why not just keep your dual row bearing? The chances of a dual row failing are slim to none. It's the single rows that have the highest rate of failure.

You still have a 1-2% probability of failure with a dual row, so it depends upon your feelings about the issue.

We have replace a lot of dual rows "while we were in there" for other reasons like a clutch swap. As he already has the engine out of the car, he is also in a similar position.

[Gelbster]

Eternal Fix? So you are feeling lucky?
Vertex and the Permanent Fix IMSB for the Boxster - Rennlist Discussion Forums

[BOOTLEG]

After JFP told me I had dual row, I did consider just leaving it there. Then I thought because the engine is out of the car the hard work is already done. Also, now that I understand the oil enters the shaft through the bearing, I would have missed the opportunity to just eliminate the entire problem. Oh, and there was the Jake Raby video of a dual row that ate itself.

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by BOOTLEG

After JFP told me I had dual row, I did consider just leaving it there. Then I thought because the engine is out of the car the hard work is already done. Also, now that I understand the oil enters the shaft through the bearing, I would have missed the opportunity to just eliminate the entire problem. Oh, and there was the Jake Raby video of a dual row that ate itself.

I mean, the dual row has about a 1 percent fail rate opposed to the single row 8 percent. So that's the difference. If you can swing the ims solution it's the best fix. I'm just saying as opposed to a retrofit you're probably fine keeping the dual row. The eternal fix is a gamble.

[boxxster]

I know of a few porsche owners in the area that have put some mileage on the eps/vertex bearing with no issues. Punching a hole in the IMS shaft is not mandatory. The product existed before they started including that modification with the kit. Even without an oil feed, its still a more robust bearing than oem that will last much longer. I don't even own one, it just bugs me that people are so quick to badmouth a product when they don't fully understand it. Is it the best solution on the market? Beats me. Is it better than oem? Certainly.

[particlewave]

A roller bearing wil be far superior to any ball bearing. JFP's claims are here say with zero empirical data to back it up. When it comes to IMS bearings, you have to consider who's supporting what product and why.
He claims that the roller bearing is "infernal", yet provides no data to back that up. Meanwhile, he claims, through suggestion, that LN bearings and the "IMS Solution" do have that data (where is it?). If he is simply referring to online testimonials, there are plenty of failed LN bearings to read about (though those were all due to left over debris or installer error), yet I can't find any reports of failed Vertex roller bearings...yet.

I'm not taking sides (I have an OEM dual row and it will forever stay OEM dual row), just saying that all options should be weighed and don't fall for the bullying.

The point? Take everything you read with a grain of salt and consider who is pushing a suggestion and why.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by particlewave

Meanwhile, he claims, through suggestion, that LN bearings and the "IMS Solution" do have that data (where is it?).

Simple: Over 20,000 successful installations still on the street world wide for the retrofits. Show me someone else that even comes close.

[boxxster]

I don't think that anybody is saying the LN bearing is junk, but to say that any product other than the LN bearing is junk/inferior is a tad bit ignorant. If you look at vertex's ebay listing, you'll notice that 42 have been sold.

Porsche IMS Intermediate Shaft Bearing Repair Eternal Fix Retrofit w Oil Feed | eBay

Now I know that's not a lot, but given that there are probably plenty that have been sold through their actual website and other retailers we can conservatively estimate that there have been at least a few hundred installed over the years. Out of everyone who has installed one, I don't think I've ever read about a single failure. Am I saying it's better than the LN? I don't know and I really don't care. But is it fair to say that it's a bad product? Absolutely not.

Again, I'd like to make it clear that I have no horse in this race. All I'm trying to do is provide some objective information on the matter.

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by boxxster

I don't think that anybody is saying the LN bearing is junk, but to say that any product other than the LN bearing is junk/inferior is a tad bit ignorant. If you look at vertex's ebay listing, you'll notice that 42 have been sold.

Porsche IMS Intermediate Shaft Bearing Repair Eternal Fix Retrofit w Oil Feed | eBay

Now I know that's not a lot, but given that there are probably plenty that have been sold through their actual website and other retailers we can conservatively estimate that there have been at least a few hundred installed over the years. Out of everyone who has installed one, I don't think I've ever read about a single failure. Am I saying it's better than the LN? I don't know and I really don't care. But is it fair to say that it's a bad product? Absolutely not.

Again, I'd like to make it clear that I have no horse in this race. All I'm trying to do is provide some objective information on the matter.

When they can back up the engineering of the part the way that ln does with theirs, I think it will be worth a look. Without the history and results the ln bearings have I would never consider it. If my choice is between a German engineered original bearing or a relatively unproven ebay solution, I'll stick with what I have and hope I have one of the 92 percent of bearings that didn't fail.

[boxxster]

Originally Posted by jdraupp

When they can back up the engineering of the part the way that ln does with theirs, I think it will be worth a look. Without the history and results the ln bearings have I would never consider it. If my choice is between a German engineered original bearing or a relatively unproven ebay solution, I'll stick with what I have and hope I have one of the 92 percent of bearings that didn't fail.

I don't disagree with you. I'd personally choose to spend my money on something more proven too. As I said, I have no horse in this race. The point I'm making is that it's unfair to to bash something when you have no evidence to support your opinion. Is the vertex bearing crap? Maybe. Will your engine grenade shortly after installing one? It's entirely possible. But until we hear any stories to support that I think we should reserve our judgment.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by boxxster

I don't think that anybody is saying the LN bearing is junk, but to say that any product other than the LN bearing is junk/inferior is a tad bit ignorant.

No one is saying that. But I am questioning several aspects of the claims made and the methodology used to get an oil feed, which they recommend be a 1-3 MM (0.039 - 0.118 inches) opening in the oil pump end of the shaft that is created using a hammer and a punch with a sharpened point, and then using an oil pump drive shaft (already notoriously weak and known to fail) with an 8 MM (0.315 inches) groove cut into it to allow the oil to pass by and flood the shaft. Having seen the factory drives fail at full diameter and kill otherwise good engines, this strikes me as a questionable design.

They are also promoting a version of this system for the 2005+ engines with an oversized bearing that uses a rental tool to bore out the rear IMS shaft case opening to a diameter large enough to allow the large factory bearing to be extracted. When I first read their press release on this process, I contacted them to ask how do you prevent metal chips or filings from getting into the engine while doing this, but all I got in return as a thank you for writing, and a copy of their product's press release.

As for the fact that they appear to have sold some without anyone reporting a failure; not all that long ago, another vendor announced a low cost plastic insert that was to be glued into the cross over area of the factory intake manifold, which would immediately yield higher torque and HP for very little money on any M96/97 engine. At the time, their lack of apparent flow bench or dyno data seemed a bit odd, and knowing how hard and expensive it is get substantial power increases on these engines, we suggested that interested customers wait a while before spending time and money on this until more information became available. This vendor also sold quite a few of them before someone else independently ran before and after dyno runs on an installation and reported on websites both net torque and HP loses when the unit was installed. Eventually this item was withdrawn from the market, but returned later, redesigned and used only when combined with an aftermarket DME reprogrammer, and much more modest improvement claims. Applications were also limited to only certain early M96 engine model years, and it now had a price tag over $1K.

Did the intake manifold unit blow up any engines? No, it did not. But it also did not deliver on its claims either.

[jdraupp]

This thread is really good. On the pelican parts forum. Lots of good food for thought and some of the best fresh non biased info I've seen in a while.

IMS "Eternal Fix", by EPS - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

[thom4782]

The big question is whether you will replace the IMSB or not. Once you decide to replace the IMSB, why would anyone try to save a few bucks on options with little or no real world track records when the cost of being wrong is in the thousands of dollars.

When considering an alternative to LN products, ask yourself: what is the real benefit of the alternative choices? No one claims their IMSB increases engine performance or mileage. The only real value I can see in the alternatives is they may have longer service lives. So ask the vendors: are they willing to claim their products will last longer than what LN claims for service life and are these vendors willing to stand behind those claims with their wallets?